quote: Original post by Edison Bright
Wow, seems I got a lot of people upset there. Sorry.

"So if you choose a game such as Sonic 3 (TM SEGA), and replace the zones by high-detail polygonal worlds and the sprites by models, will it be less fun to play?"

That depends on if you keep the 2D gameplay intact. 3D platform games are generally miserable in my opinion because the control gets fucked up, and the fact that you have to take care of the camera makes everything less fun. But if you still kept the "2d gameplay" the same it would certainly be as fun, just look better. Donkey Kong was a great game with 2d gameplay and 3dish graphics.

I am not saying we should go back to 320x240 16 color 2d games, but that we should go back to the gameplay of older games. There i sno reasonm why you cannot make a game with the ameplay of a platform side-scroller that uses modern graphics (just lock the camera, and limit the directions of movement). The question you should ask when you are designing a game is, "does this NEED to be 3d?"

"And if you choose a game such as the Sims, and replace all models by beautiful hand-drawn sprites, will it become better and more addictive?"

Absolutely not. But I dont consider The Sims a game in the first place. The only thing you do really is buy a house and decorate it. The rest of the time you just need to sit back and relax. Thats a total lack of actuall gameplay.

I'm a fan of a select few Platformers, but there's always a few good ones on consoles. Mario Sunshine not only manages to be one of the most attractive games of the years, it's also equally addictive. And bringing back some feel from the old NES/SNES ones was brilliant (I would have settled for the tunes though hehe). All the PS2 platformers for the holidays were pretty disappointing, so Mario stands alone unless someone can think of something to match.

Metroid Prime was nothing short of brilliant itself. Probably the finest 2D->3D of all time. Like Mario Sunshine, the environments and effects were all on and the GameCube never suffers a hit. It follows the same typical Metroid setup. You run around hunting and obtaining powerups. The story appears to be quite optional. You can read about Chozo and gather facts about the Pirates to help you in your hunt.

SOCOM is currently the hottest PS2 game. While I'm sure someone debating this topic would shoot down the gameplay, each person will get a different feel out of it. Personally, I loved how much detail and time went into the environments. It really improves the quality of playing, which is immediately apparant when you try to play in a harder setting. Online gaming is where SOCOM gets its purchases at though. Not a single SNES can compete with the addictiveness of online gaming. Each round will be unique and unpredictable. While the base of online play is nothing short of a CS rip-off, the levels are packed with hiding spots and difficulties. Some maps placed out in the jungles, where you can use the help of streams and shrub to get around. Maps like Blizzard will force you to slow down and carefully watch yourself. And of course, there's maps like Frostfire that are small and meant to be quick.

XBox only appears to have one title worth mentioning right now: Splinter Cell. It probably won't win any respect gameplay wise from anyone, but the style of gameplay was still enjoyable. And thanks to the UW engine, really worked well. Definately another must play game, but you won't really miss out much if you shrug it off.

2D games aren't dead, of course. And the Gameboy Advance continues to prove that as developers push the tiny, yet powerful, system. While it's definately an easy way for people to cash in again on franchises, new and exciting games have come. I sorta wish the 3D Metroid would have been Metroid Fusion with all the story and unique twist to the game, but it does well on GBA nonetheless. Still a little disappointing after several years of anticipation. Among this one, there have been several good RPGs and the rebirth of some famous platformers in 2D. Pretty good year for GBA, and I still liked playing the old games once again.

For 3D gaming, 2002 was pretty bland comparing to 2001. But late this year GameCube finally got into the groove. 2003 will certainly be an impressive year for the GCN. Nothing on the XBox really excites me. Maybe Phantasy Star Online if you don't own a GCN. Can't think of anything else, but it may sneak up on me. PC games weren't all that exciting this year, but if you like FPS it was a decent year.

So can 3D games match 2D in game quality? Yes. It's just taken a hell of a lot longer to reach a good peak in the technology to meet standards. Now, all the technology is all there. Hopefully, with luck, use of prerendered Cg will stop almost completely. While it can definately be nice at a few moments in the game, anyone pulling a Konami, Capcom, or Square-styled game in 2003 should be shot. Please, stop torturing us!

Just a subjective opinion for another. I love what 3D gaming has to offer, and it gets better and better each time the standards raise (and no, I don't speak of just graphics here).

[edited by - aggregate on January 6, 2003 11:53:18 AM]

Your right at al time. For know some one tell me the best the played in 3d that had them have a warm feeling inside excep for square soft game and legend of dragoon. The more we continu the more we get game that are simulating or life like gta vice city and the sims. we got to stop that and make more game like snes game whit the same playabiliti !!!!

Aggregate, Impossible, Sandman: This is not my style, but you win.

I just think that it is sad that the 2d platformer kind of died, that is all. It is not really my favorite genre (strategy is)but I play a wide range of games and without them it feels like a lot is missing.

Peace!
// Edison Bright

Then why don''t you just make a 2d game yourself? When Marvel vs. Capcom came out, people LOVED the game -- well, at least where I lived. I believe that a good game has nothing to do with the graphics. I mean, if you look at Pong compared to the later period of 2D games, you will find that they became "better" over time. They were handling more graphics and were incorperating storytelling elements, but because of that change, they had to sacrifice some of the older game structures to incorperate the new.

I would play SMB3 over Pong anyday (because that game came out during the pinnicle of my younger years and I just liked how they designed the characters), but Pong will keep me entertained for much longer just because of it''s simplicity. The KISS priciple applies here. But other than it''s simplicity to play, it''s appeal of it being something new was what sold it when it first came out.

But as humans, we always strive to do more and make bigger and better things. We want something new, but something that is vaugly familiar. This is to ensure our individuality and yet be accepted as part of the whole. We try to expand upon the legacy of our forefathers by continuing the same explorations that they did. That includes games.

Platform based games were the latter part of the 2d era ( for most of our generation, when 2d games were still new and popular enough to sell.) It was if those games back then were made expecialy for us. But now it''s our turn, except WE are the creators now, we have seen our past and now it is time to embrace our future with a unique, yet familiar form of gaming. We must proclaim our individuality with our efforts and ensure a legacy of an endevor that we belive to be noble.

If you want the same kind of fun as you experienced, remember the lessons of the elder''s creations and honor them by doing better. We continue to kindle the flame within us all by passing the torch to the next generation, we entrust them to learn from our mistakes, but to keep the same spirit of enginenuity alive.

One day, our children may look upon what we created, and think highly of us, and somewhere inside themselves, be thankful of the games we pondered over and created. We are the new age of pioneers on this great 3D fronter. We are here to tame the ideas of old and build a new foundation of fun. We are to become more civilized through this conquest and we are to find the best that can be found in this medium.

Flame me if you want, but I think the only reason people think old games are better than the new is the replay value. And on the 2d and 3d war, I like both. If you think it deducts from the gameplay, look at Halo. Look at Super Mario 64 (still the best Mario game). Look at Mech Assault. And the later Final Fantasy series. Don''t be prejudiced, the gameplay doesn''t depend on the graphics. And to the last AP, GTA and other life-based games have great replay value, and they have playability and are simple. Side note: I think most people like newer games (most) because they are more immersive (thats the reason for graphics) so the losers like me get to have fun as a different person, and aren''t the total asshole for once.

_________________________________________________________________

So...how does this "reproductive system" of yours work? -Anonymous

How do I put this?

Pthhthththththttt!!!!!!

This strange belief that games were better ''back in the day'' is so much crap.

Yes, we had GREAT fun. Why?

Because our expectations were so much lower. It''s kinda like what scared you back in 1975 is what you laugh at in movies today. Oh, you think movies telegraph their storylines today? Look at movies from the 50s. Like you didn''t know how "It''s a Wonderful Life" was going to end?

It''s the way of people. You get used to one thing and you now consider that the standard, whether it''s the top or bottom of the heap. We keep getting used to better and better games, the gameplay is more difficult, the storylines are better or worse, based upon what is the standard of the time.

In other words, don''t blame the game makers for making storylines that *you* aren''t happy with or games that *you* don''t find "fun". These games may be way more enjoyable for other people. So you don''t like ''Doom 3'' or ''The Sims''... maybe it''s just because you don''t "get it". My wife loves playing ''The Sims'' and I''ve been known to burn a couple of hours on it too. Would I rather be playing ''Phantasie'' by SSI or ''Neverwinter Nights''? No question at all here, I''d rather play NWN 9 days out of 10. Way more immersive and there is more to enjoy than the storyline. Unfortunately, like humans that aren''t blind, the vast majority of my conscious thought is dominated by processing vision. So ''eye candy'' really is worth something. I may be one of the unwashed masses, but I''m willing to admit that, were I given the choice between a beautiful woman with a decent personality and an ugly one with an amazing personality, I''ll be sleeping with the beautiful one.

Did those old games have some good value? Heck yeah. Do I want to go back to ''the good old days''? Hell no, not in a million years. If I have to give up a small amount of storyline to get some gameplay and immersion, I happily will, as will the vast majority of the non-purists. Do I enjoy the old school games still? Of course. Would I burn my time playing those games for more than a little while? Naah. I''ve got the C=64 emulator and all kinds of games for it. I play it like once every other month maybe for an evening and then I''m done.

I apologize if I''m a little aggressive, but I am so tired of hearing people (who probably can''t even remember when Space Invaders or Pac Man came out) whine about the ''good old days''. You ever own an Intellivision? How about an Atari 2600? Forget that Commodore 64, tell me about your Pet. If you think I''m talking about your dog or cat, thank you for playing.

I remember when Space Invaders came out. I remember just about every game system that came out, from the Atari 2600 to a Colecovision (with Adam) and I owned most of them. I''ve played games that you probably have only seen in emulators or in the ''old games'' section of the arcade. The ''good old days'' weren''t all that good, they are just old now.

Ecckkk... here''s my $.02

For every 3D game I have shelved to collect dust, 50+ 2D games have started to grow mold(pc, sega, nintendo, etc)

I agree with the fact, navigating in a 3D world using 2D controllers and video can suck but until they invent some sort
of 3D interface that rocks, we are stuck for the time being.

My pet peeves:
- able to count the number of polygons in a 3D game
- toonshaded games on the x-box.. what''s the point? Gimme realistic textures please and push the power to the limits.
- seeing advertisements for 3D games in the movie theater and able to count the number of polygons even better...


*** THREADJACK!!! ***

I have played MW2 (mechwarrior 2) and loved it, yes it was 3D and a real bi*ch sometimes using my keyboard (yes my keyboard) to maneuver and shoot but I got into it. When MW3 came out, I was ecstatic as the interface and graphics were beautiful. I burned many hours using the sucky keyboard. MW4 doesn''t impress me as much, somehow it is the graphics, gameplay or something. Maybe it is the opacity-mapped missles and trees that really piss me off. Then I had to waste money on MW2:Mercenaries and damn! Something about the economy or missions that microsoft screwed up, I have no idea. I played it for two days then put it on the shelf to play warcraft 3
I can''t wait for starcraft 2 to come out!

My top games were warcraft 3, until I got age of mythology 2 and startrek armada.. and I don''t have nuff time to tie my shoelaces in the day sometimes >(



I fseek, therefore I fam.