quote: Original post by beantas
1) "Gameplay makes the game, not graphics."
This is true to some extent, but not _entirely_ true. Graphics matter. They can matter like crazy. Graphics are what immerse you. Graphics are what creates the universe in which you play in. People like to feel all wise and critical and like to say "Games should just focus on gameplay!" No they shouldn't. They should focus on creating a good game. Gameplay is just a part of that. It's an important part, but not the only part. Graphics _can_ (not always) make up another very big part.

If graphics make a game, then I suppose movies are games. They have good graphics right?

The cliché is correct, graphics DO NOT make a game. That is not to say graphics are not important to the immersiveness of the game, not to mention the marketing success, but at the end of the day, a turd is a turd, regardless of how well polished it is.


[edited by - Sandman on November 5, 2002 11:00:04 AM]

quote: Original post by beantas
[...] I agree, although there are some people who claim they only play games because they enjoy the stories. I''m not sure if they''re lying, deluded, or if they truly believe that.

There is a third possibility: Perhaps some people actually do that? I''m not saying that all people do, but I think there''s a fair chance that some do. Storyline is crucial to certain kinds of games.

quote: Original post by Sandman
If graphics make a game, then I suppose movies are games. They have good graphics right?

My point was not that just graphics make a game. My point was that a game is this holistic package of many parts. And gameplay alone will not always make a good game. So the cliche is not always true. Graphics can matter, sound can matter, controls can matter, story can matter.


[edited by - beantas on November 5, 2002 11:23:27 AM]

quote: Original post by beantas
My point was not that just graphics make a game. My point was that a game is this holistic package of many parts. And gameplay alone will not always make a good game. So the cliche is not always true. Graphics can matter, sound can matter, controls can matter, story can matter.

I disagree. I would define ''a good game '' as being ''a game with good gameplay'' and therefore, by definition, all games with good gameplay are good games. How would you define ''a good game ''?

Of course, if the gameplay mechanics require a certain quality of graphics, then it is essential that that level of quality is reached. Anything above that quality is really just eye-candy.

Of course, eye candy is important to some extent. The nicer it looks, the more attention it gets, and it helps to distinguish your product from the competition. But don''t fool yourself into thinking that it can ever make up for shitty gameplay.

Great gameplay and bad graphics is bad.

i don''t agree with this statement. Some people enjoy playing on their mobile phones the most simple games. why beacause they are fun and distract your attention and they don''t care a lot about the graphics. Sure everyone likes better graphics.

some text muds are still popular today

graphics merely create the atmoshpere and versimilitude of the game. i dont think we should be arguing over graphics as much as the atmoshpere that sound and visuals make. take final fantasy 7 for instance. the storyline was good to start with, but without the awesome music and great visuals (except for the crude in-game charecter models), would it have even made the top 10? having played ff7,8,9, me and most of my friends agree that ff7 had something that the others didnt. that versimilitude. thats what attracts the game to the game, and keeps them into it.

Some "games" are all about atmosphere.... which is almost completely dependant on visuals and music. Take Myst or Riven for example.... would it have been all that fun to walk around in a series of grey shaded cubes solving puzzles? I can''t honestly say I thought either of those games were very fun .... but certainly plenty of people did...due largly in part to the experience of just walking around in really great looking and interesting environments.

...another gameplay vs. graphics debate...

Ok, my definition of a "good game" is one that I enjoy playing. I might enjoy it for its pure gameplay(Tetris, Smash Bros.), I might enjoy it for the story(Grim Fandango), or I might enjoy it for the coolness of the visuals(American McGee''s Alice, Myst). So I think that graphics _can be_ as important to a game as its "gameplay". "Can be" doesn''t mean always or even most of the time, but I just mean to say that these debates don''t really have an answer that will work for all possible games.

quote: Original post by Sandman
Of course, eye candy is important to some extent. The nicer it looks, the more attention it gets, and it helps to distinguish your product from the competition. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it can ever make up for shitty gameplay.

It can, it sometimes does, and for others, it does very often. It depends highly on why the gameplay is considered shitty. Everyone keeps saying "bad gameplay" but that can mean a lot of different things. If the game is shallow, I can live with that if the game is immersive and graphics are sharp (Myst). If the game has awkward controls and immersive sharp graphics, I won't consider it a bad game(Gun Valkyrie). If the gameplay is nothing new from what I've seen before and the graphics are sharp, I can deem it a good game. If the game is frustrating to play but has immersive sharp graphics, I will deem that a bad game.

It depends on a lot of things because gameplay is tough thing to put in a box and critique. It probably isn't right to just say "good" or "bad." It can be different things and graphics can complement them or work against them. Hence all mentioning of the words "sometimes" or "can be". But to say that pushing graphics technology is bad, or that good graphics can't contribute to a game's quality, that's silly.

[edited by - beantas on November 5, 2002 3:07:44 PM]

Can I hit the cliche that graphics are a one dimensional line with SUCK on one end and DOOMIII on the other. Some of the best games I played (FF7, Xenogears, MGS) all did nice with their graphics, but made sure to retain the overall tone throughout. For example, snakes head bobbing up and down with speech (no visible face animations).

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.