walkingcarcass,

Thank you very much for your post. You''ve taken my stated approach and actually applied it. Your idea of using mechanical statistics and principles based on biology and physical metrics is exactly what my idea should have been. Instead, my original idea was simply a more complex version of an abstraction - a pitfall I should have known better than to fall into. A fair number of games actually do fall into this trap, layering one abstract system over another in an attempt to add complexity and realism to a deliberately simple and unrealistic approach, when better results could be gained by simply building realistically from the ground up. The previous is just a rephrase of walkingcarcass'' argument, actually.

For all the rest of you, walkingcarcass'' idea is the one I now largely endorse. It can however be explained in terms of Soak, Endurance, and Grit. Soak becomes an average value representing the flesh''s ability to absorb force, Endurance becomes a measure of the structural strength of the tendons and bones, and Grit becomes an indication of the body''s training to ignore pain - through adrenaline or concentration. It should be noted now, however, that these values are not constant values throughout the system. A character with high Endurance, say, has a healthy body overall, but this does not mean that his fingerbones are as tough as his tibia! The Endurance factor is distributed proportionally across structural components.

It may be an idea to use some estimate of these derived values as a means of reporting the character''s stats to the player. A more interesting way would be to have the player try things out on his character to give a rough "gameworld" approximation of his abilities: "I can punch into this bowl of pebbles without hurting, but I can''t do the same for those larger rocks over there."

Inmate2993,

Armor is a vital factor for survival in medieval warfare. One way to treat armor would be assigning it Soak, Endurance, and Durability. The Durability is a simple "HP" measure as consciousness is not an issue for objects.

1. The armor''s Soak value is used to determine damage to the armor''s Durability.

2. The armor''s Soak value and the character''s Soak value are combined to determine damage to the character.

The Endurance of the armor is used to determine its "performance": in this case, how much of its Soak value is used to protect the player. While its own Soak value always protects the armor itself, the degree to which it protects the player goes down as it takes damage. Thus the mere Durability of an armor is not enough to recommend it if it has a low Endurance: it will survive for a long time, but after a few blows it will just be non-protecting dead weight.

I realize this isn''t the simple rating of fighting ability you hoped for. In real life, this kind of gauge simply doesn''t exist. However, it could be possible to have the computer consider all the data about the character: his current % damage, his Soak and Endurance, his armor''s Soak, Endurance, and % damage, and give a rough heuristic value for "combat endurance" which is then displayed to the character as a "HP bar". Most likely this would not represent actual % damage, but rather average amount of damage that can be taken before performance drops below acceptable levels (say 50% of max).

The use of adrenaline or performance-enhancing drugs would increase this "HP bar" by artificially boosting performance, but wouldn''t actually heal damage. In fact, base % damage might actually degrade as the drugs allow the body to do more than it ought to. Then "healing" in this way becomes more of a strategic question: Will running at near-optimal for the next three minutes be worth the hell I''d be putting my body through? Or should I put the stimpack/coca down and call it a day?

Now, I''m aware that factors such as this have been implemented in other systems. But consider the structural difference behind the implementation. Whereas in other games this kind of boost/degradation healing is a "feature" implemented as a special rule for a special object, it is just one emergent phenomenon resulting from the realistic concept-based implementation. Any number of other "features" which would have to be specially hard-coded in an abstract rules system would be far easier to represent as emergent phenomena once the ground rules are built properly. I''ll give another example which just occurred to me: weapon degradation.

Most attacks are instances of one object colliding with another. In real life, collisions induce force on both participants equally, and it is the distribution of this force and the materials composing the participants which determine which is damaged. In games, the collision special case of weapon on attacked item is considered to do damage only to the target, or at most "degrades" the weapon in some abstract fashion. But since we have to have a good collision engine for the "moves" system (once again, see other thread), why not put it to another good use? Model each collision separately. Use this formula to determine damage:

D2 = (m1)*(v1+v2)/A1

where m1 is the mass of object 1,
v1+v2 is the sum of their opposed velocities,
A1 is the impacting area of object 1,
and D2 is the damage dealt to object 2.

Thus, the smaller A1 is and the larger m1 is the more damage object 2 takes. Makes sense: picks, which have high mass and a small-area head, do hideous amounts of damage. On the other hand, wide weapons like flat hammers will do comparatively less - but with their large faces they are more likely to hit, and with their large size m1 is likely to be quite high! Note also, that the reverse formula is used to apply damage back to object 1. However, a large, flat object such as a shield or armor plate is likely to do little damage to a striking weapon. I was initially worried that rapiers with their small point and high speeds would be more deadly than they ought to be, but I then considered their low mass and the high Soak factor of armor. In fact, the armor''s mass might do enough damage to a rapier to break it!

Sorry, I''ve gone and diverged again... thoughts?

---------------------------------------------------
-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

I have seen these systems come and go(so many people think hp are evil... it just takes balance... although I employ a "When damaged you suck" policy). The thing I wanted to poke in and mention, though, was that I, as a person, feel that it would take far more than 1 hit from lots of things to stop me from being at my best. 1 critical hit is a different matter, but I bet I would feel good down to 65-75% hp, then I would start to degrade. ... Maybe its just how I perform my actions.

Okay...so now that combat is something a player may actually avoid...and even ''player-killers'' might not risk loseing thier "high level" character if a newbie has at least a 1 in 10 chance of beating them...what else are players going to do in this MMORPG?

Obviously, they won''t need to spend much time on building combat skills...as they would quickly learn that fighting isn''t worth the risk...this isn''t to say combat won''t take place (or PKers won''t try to pick off newbies)...but the goal seems to be to use realistic combat as a model to reduce the game''s dependancy on it for conflict resolution.

So what other "realisticly" implamented gameplay options will be open to them when the game goes ''live''?

Will players be able to take a lawyer "character class"? They could then be hired by accused PKers to defend them in some form of court? Course such character classes would have to be ''certified'' by the judicial system (pass bar exam, etc..)...and even then they would need to maintain lawyer-client information secrets (serious roleplaying skills would be needed for this)...and heaven forbid if the lawyer''s player can''t get online in time for his court case...

This might be overly obvious...but if this much detail and focus is spent on developing a more "realistic" combat system...then wouldn''t players feel ''cheated'' if all the other game systems arn''t as "realistic"? Where do you draw the line?

we need more threads as good as this!

as a side note on realism, a person can be shot in the shoulder and die instantly from the shock. a man in a WW2 bomber got machine-gunned dozens of times (about 170 i think) and survived. "real life" is often abnormal and gives superlative examples to everything.

consider "childrens" and "adults" games (board games, cards, anything). childrens'' games tend to rely much more on chance so the less skilled youngsters dont get upset, while adults'' games often rely almost entirely on skill.

one crucially misused difficulty factor in damage models is the randomness of what''s taken. "bullet to the chest = -30%" kinds of models in quakeesque games are largely responsible for the seperation of the weak and strong, but if it was a "realistic" game we could legitimately give each bullet an X% richochet-from-ribs probability and/or have the diversity of the damage taken dependant on odds derived from skill level.

this could be exquisitly used in weapon balance ie a flamethrower burns you just as much as anyone else unless you''re significantly bigger/smaller, or are wearing some hind of armour, but the frag from grenades is all over the place and in clumps or it would be fairly easy and effective to widen the spread of shotgun fire on a low-skilled high-health newbie.

********


A Problem Worthy of Attack
Proves It''s Worth by Fighting Back

This is all great and all, but I''d like to stress that we play games for entertainment, and we run simulations to see what it might actually be like. For what thats worth, the sims is fun until you figure out the math of it. With that said, we have to find a way to incorperate some kind of enjoyment in realistically being killed. This system would be great for a game involving snipers and general instant-kill situations. But for the quake type of game, or even an MMORPG, its more a war of attrition. Who can hold out longer given some circumstances. Then the real talent comes from a momentary opportunity. Suddenly being able to duck behind a wall when that rocket is making it''s way towards you. Everybody hates campers because they take cheap shots and don''t get involved in the fast-paced action.

With that said, lets see how we can change realistic numbers so that theres an element of real fun for the player.

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

quote: Original post by SpittingTrashcan
D2 = (m1)*(v1+v2)/A1

where m1 is the mass of object 1,
v1+v2 is the sum of their opposed velocities,
A1 is the impacting area of object 1,
and D2 is the damage dealt to object 2.

Don''t forget:

"For each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." - Newtons Third Law

You are making a one-sided formula there. Damage needs to be equally distributed between both objects.

So, it should look something like this:

D = (m1*m2)/A

D = damage (to both objects) per square unit
m1 = momentum of object 1
m2 = momentum of object 1


Now, you would need to calculate the force per square unit that the objects could handle before breaking, and the force they could take without sustaining any damage. The factors in this might be density, thickness, and brittleness (I don''t know the word for it, but how brittle the object is), and shape/structure (easier to break something flat than round).

Now apply the damage to both the object. If damage < the force the object can take without sustaining any damage, then apply no damage. If damage > the amount of force it takes to break the object, the object breaks. Anything in between, the integrity of the object is diminished.

Note that it is possible for neither object to sustain any damage in a collision (clap your hands; does one break?). Of course, the only difficult part here is to figure out the damage an object is able to sustain.

Best of luck!

ahhh ahhh ahh no lawyers.
Seriously.
Mega-unpopular move.

I`m thinking that because this system is vastly more detailed
than the HP/MP system, it will need to be tweaked for each setting. Modern, Fasntasy, sci-fi, etc.

For instance, guns and/or blasters are equalizers.
"Guns are the great equalizer".

So we need to take into account that a total newbie can kill a top-flight combat vet.

Think lvl 1. accidently killing lvl 20.

In fanstasy settings this equalizer is usually defined as magic, in most books I''ve read.
Mages protect their secrets so that they can maintain their status in society and keep the uninitiated from wreaking havoc.

just some more thoughts...


Bugle4d

quote:
So we need to take into account that a total newbie can kill a top-flight combat vet.

EXACTLY!

quote:
ahhh ahhh ahh no lawyers.
Seriously.
Mega-unpopular move.

How so?

Seriously...what is going to draw players to the game?...."realistic" combat?

You have just spent the last six weeks building your character up...maxing out your skills....becomeing that "top-flight combat vet"...you walk into town, and bump into a snotty mouthed newbie...whom promptly opens up a can of whup azz all over your face...your character is dead...all that hard work was wasted....and because the game features realistic perminate death...you can''t even get your equipment back.

Is this what YOU REALLY WANT in a MMORPG? Think, THINK, THINK about it!






If it still is...then lock away the combat system for now...just lock it away so you can''t even think about it...just imagine that this MMORPG does NOT even have a combat system...put all of your creative energy into developing the rest of the game world...develop, new and interesting roles for the players to enjoy...develop gameplay systems so players don''t have to resolve conflict through combat....develop other things for players to do, other things that will allow them to feel that they are not wasteing thier time, that will allow them to feel that they are "gaining levels" and improveing as they play....don''t do this half arsed, put your full attention and energy into it.

I''ll ask it again, what else is there to do in the game?

MSW:

1. You''re right. While not entirely disallowing combat, I do want people to avoid it to such an extent that it is rarely if ever seen.

2. You''re right. I need to start thinking about things to do besides combat, pronto...

... wait, here are some!

* Purchase and operate a pastry shop. Craft new and interesting looking pastries, and chat with your customers.
* Explore ancient ruins. Bring rope, extra torches, and a ten-foot pole.
* Make a play for town council. Chat up the locals and convince them that you''ll be better than the fat cat currently in power. When elected, empty the treasury into your pants and run like the dickens.
* Become the meanest basketball player on your block.
* Master the ways of the ninja and steal people''s secrets.
* Become a bounty hunter. Live on the edge. Crusade for justice... or money.
* Bump casually into passersby and snatch their wallets.
* Start a volunteer group to care for the orphans.
* Two words: guerilla artist. Paint your messages of subversion and social justice onto every wall you see. Hoof it when the fuzz comes calling.
* Charm little old ladies out of their nest eggs.
* Claim a park bench as your own. Drink cheap liquor from bottles wrapped in paper. Threaten to use your "mental rays" on anyone who bothers you.
* Sew elegant embroideries onto the trenchcoats of gangsters.
* Build the world''s largest tower of junk.
* Run around taking pictures of notable events. Publish your own newspaper with a typewriter, some paste, and a copy machine. Sell it on the street.
* Become an inhuman being. This takes time and effort - less than total dedication to your chosen path means slow going.
* Dedicate yourself to one of innumerable factions squabbling about the true nature of the world. Leave burning bags of poop on each other''s doorsteps by way of argument.
* Create a sanctuary of law and purity. However you define those.
* Master the forces of magic. Then start mastering the real forces of Magic. Then begin to grasp the cosmic powers of REAL MAGICK... layers within layers, wheels within wheels.
* Scour basements for saltpeter. Scrape up bat poop for niter. Mix carefully. Black powder! Fireworks!
* Try to build a VW Beetle, with beetle legs. Succeed.

The real problem shouldn''t be finding something to do, it should be deciding what.

Vlion:

Levels? After I''ve spent this much time talking about realistic rules, people still dare mention levels? You know, the bane of my existence, the mechanic better left unnamed, the reason why MMORPGs cannot support any sort of social organization predicated on the fundamental equality of all men (because lvl 60 >> lvl 1)? No my friendly friend, there will BE NO LEVELS IN MY HAPPY WORLD. At least, not the kind you''re used to.

NeoSmyle:

Erm. If you looked a little further in my post, you''d see that the formula for applying damage is calculated twice, once for each of the objects colliding, and damage is indeed applied to both. In fact, this was the whole point of the post... The damage object 2 does to object 1 is directly proportional to the mass of object 2 and the relative velocity of objects 1 and 2, and inversely proportional to the striking area of object 2. And the reverse goes for object 1 damaging object 2.

Resilience is represented by the Soak factor of each object, which is a figure calculated through measurements of resilience of real-world materials. The HP and Endurance curves of objects represent how much damage it takes to break the object, as well as how much it takes to render the object ineffective for its use. Once a shield, for instance, is damaged enough, it won''t be in any shape to defend the holder, though it won''t necessarily be in pieces either. That''s what the Endurance factor is for.

Inmate:

As I already said, there are plenty of games out there where you can have fun being violent. This is not going to be one of them. Sorry.

Skill will be a major factor in combat (since raw strength and endurance won''t be), and I do intend for a highly skilled person to be able to fight with an entirely unskilled one with an acceptable level of risk, as in real life. If anyone''s looking for where the "leveling" part of the game is, it will most likely be found here: in gaining new maneuvers and skills which make you a more effective fighter. However, even a Florentine fencer will be in trouble if beset by many farmers with shovels. Your skills will make you effective when you can use them effectively. Setting up the right situation for effective use is up to the strategy of the player.

walkingcarcass:

High praise! Thanks much. But although I understand your point that the real world holds many examples of the wide variance of the effectiveness of attacks, this may not be a good idea to carry over into the game world. What people hate most in a game is not when it is unrealistic (as has been pointed out to me numerous times) but when it "breaks" its own rules. If you take away consistent and reliable performance of weapons, people get upset.

One of the keys to suspension of disbelief is consistency of results of actions. If I do things the same I should get the same result right? People might understand a little variance between situations and characters (one character having enough Soak to withstand a hit another character falls to), but wide variances in damage from weapons unrelated to their proper use leads people to wonder about the effectiveness of learning to use them properly. "I might as well not even bother learning better aim, as the damage is all random anyway." This is not what I want people saying. And this is where I step aside from the chaos of reality and choose a less realistic but more deterministic damage model. Do you understand why? I hope I''ve made it clear but I''ve been known to be obscure.

---------------------------------------------------
-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

quote:
The real problem shouldn't be finding something to do, it should be deciding what.

Exactly :D

I know you realise this. So the rest of this post is for everyone else....

take this for example:

"* Charm little old ladies out of their nest eggs."

how will this work? It would be fairly strait forward if the "little old lady" were a computer controled NPC...but what if she is just another player, and the person in control of the "charmer" wasn't very good at it (even though the character's skills reflect otherwise)?


You arn't going to be able to just develop the combat system in detail and then just give players a collection of tools to develop the rest...A 'foundation' needs to be laied...there needs to be enough of this "other stuff" in the game from the beginning (and a way to generate more/variations on it).

No game can be everything to everyone...a line has to be drawn somewhere...


[edited by - MSW on October 11, 2002 1:15:44 AM]