Very cool! You guys are coming up with skills similar to what I had in mind and at the same time fairly varied. Here are the 5 I originally thought of:

Battle - weapon use, dodge, parry, ...
Magic - anything magic related
Mind - communication, information absorption, charm, ...
Body - strength, agility, acrobatics, ...

Wait a minute! That's not 5! Yep. During my original post I used to have Projectile in a seperate category. Now it's under one of those 4. Which one? I don't know. Probably Battle, as I'm thinking of Projectile as part of weapon use, as in throwing daggers and shooting arrows. Of course, if you're just throwing rocks at trees it's not much of a Battle skill but that's a small sacrifice, I guess. Also, I just reread the posts and alfmga had a good one that I liked: Actions . It may be my 5th skill. I'll have to think about it.

I'd also like to acknowledge that as with most things, there are no correct answers, as Neosmyle and MorganE pointed out that it does depend on other specific game details. Still, I appreciate the feedback.

So, I'd say that almost every skill could probably be put under those four. Just to check, I'll run through all of the skills you guys submitted and see if I can neatly put all under mine.

Battle a.k.a. Combat, Fighting

Magic
Supernatural

Mind a.k.a. Mental
Intelligence, Social, Will, Intellect, Psionic, Mechanical, Wisdom

Body a.k.a. Physical
Agility, Strength, Vitality, Endurance

Outdoorsman, Urban, Edge and Ability (though probably under Mind) are more creative and a different way of looking at things. They probably don't fit under my skill system but they definitely made me think.

I also realize that some of the skills, being as general as they are, intertwine. For example, those who have a good Body may have better Battle skills than those who don't. Similar goes for Mind. Leonid Shevtsov also already pointed this out. Just something I'm still working out...

Thanks for the replies!!

[edited by - GameCreator on September 4, 2002 5:14:24 PM]

I think you mean stats, rather than skills. Or maybe ''skill groups''. Skills tend to mean specific packages of competency that are applied to quite narrow situations, and are often fixed in ''quality'', whereas statistics measure a more general range of actions and tend to have a value that measures the degree of ability. Sorry if this is focusing on detail, but generally it helps if we all share the same vocabulary.

I liked the Ultima approach of Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity. Everything can fit into those categories or some combination of them. Although I may just dump statistics altogether for one of my games and just let players pick appropriate skills. There would probably be something like 50 or more of these, and a lot of effort would go into making them all desirable to a similar degree.

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Actually, it would be nice to know what to call these. They are too general to be skills, I agree. I like skill groups better than statistics. But then there''s also traits, abilities, techniques, arts and other synonyms.

All those lists are great, but they are all still much too specific.

Take a hint from D&D D&D manages to break it down into just six attributes -

Strength
Dexterity
Consititution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma

This can include your ''magic'' attribute, and still be further reduced to

Strength
Dexterity
Mental
Magic

Strength is more then just how strong a character is. It is their resistence to attacks, their ability to keep going after their injured (constitution), resistence to diseases, and endless other physical things.

Dexterity is ''how good they are with their hands''. High dexterity means good hand-eye coordination, it includes agility, dodge skills, parrying, using more then one weapon, being able to pick up the ''feel'' of a new weapon quickly, their reflexes, etc.

Mental includes Intelligence and Wisdom. These are only really seperated in D&D to make a distinction between priests and magi, there is no reason at all not to combine them. This also includes willpower; the abillity to resist some forms of magic attacks, and certain parts of the charisma attribute.

Magic is just that. Magic. Magis resistence and spellcasting ability... hard to describe further without know your magic system.

Charisma can be gotten by combining the first three attributes. Strength and Dexeterity determine what people think about them before they open their mouths, and mental, after.

quote: Original post by GameCreator
But now what about Strength, Endurance, Stamina, Dexterity, Weapon Use, Defense, Parry, Dodge, Intelligence, Knowledge, Wisdom, Communication, Charm, Charisma, Constitution, Tracking, Agility, Throwing, Shooting, etc. etc. You get the point. Can you reduce it all into about 5 skills/categories?

AD&D makes a distinction between character stats (str, dex, con, int, wis and cha) and abilities (lockpicking, longsword, axe, destructive magic, bartering) etc.

Every ability is tied to a stat. Eg. if you practice your spells a lot, your magic abilities go up, and indirectly your int. If you practice your longsword/axe, your str goes up indirectly, same for lockpicking and dex.

str determines how much weight you can carry, dex how fast you are, int how much mana you have, con how much hitpoints, all very direct. Abilities act as a modifier to the base stats.

To avoid AD&D problems (especially if your stats go up to 18 and then to 18/02 etc) find an alternative system. EG. make charisma an ability, combine int and wis.

Why not design a system of alternative configurations?

Shield systems, for example, can be configured full forward, full aft, left, right and even.

An rpg could allow you to do similar things with the body: sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste, etc.

My favourite stat system is that used by a French RPG system called Simulacres, and then later by another French RPG called Shaan. They both have slightly different versions, but the same spirit.

Basically, instead of having a list of stats that describe various aspects of the characters relevant to gaming, they offer very symbolic stats, that once combined describe various aspects of the char. The difference being in the freedom of interpretation the GM has.
For instance, there isnt a Strength and a Stamina stat, but one single physical component, combined either with an Active aspect, or a Passive aspect. Mmmh, the simplest thing is that I describe it, right ?

So there :
a character has 3 Components : Body, Soul and Mind.

-Body, is a quantitative as well as qualitative description of your Body. A high value could mean that you are very beautiful, strong, tall, etc. It''s up to you to refine the brute value to give consistency to your char.
A low value an indicate a small creature, or a very weak being, or very ugly, handicapped or otherwise impaired. 0 means that the being doesnt have a body (a ghost, or other non physical being)

-Soul is the animal, irrational nature of the being, it presides over matters of instinct, 6th sense, and other things that Reason cant fathom. I call it the "sparkle of like". Strong values indicate strong instincts, very animal nature. Low value indicate a more inactive being, a vegetal would have 1, a person in the coma, etc. 0 means the being is not "alive" as such (a computer, for instance).

-Mind is the ability for a being to think, to reason, solve problems, plan ahead, conceptualize, etc. It''s a value of how sentient a being is. A high value indicate great problem solving abilities, capacity to learn, logical reaoning, etc. Low values indicates small brains/neural capabilities, for instance insects, or a person with brain damage. 0 would indicate a brainless being, unable to actually think for itself (a zombie, for instance).

Then you combine those three components with three Means : Perception, Action and Control.
-Perception is the ability to perceive things coming from the outside, the environment, which are directed at the individual.
These can be physical stimuli (the 5 senses, for the Body), these can be concepts and ideas (understanding the environment, using your Mind), or more immaterial things, like emotions and other irrational phenomena (perceiving what cant be seen using your Soul, your 6th sense).

-Action is the ability to act on the outside environment using your Components.
Physical actions using your Body. Communicate with the environment, express ideas, plan ahead, using your Mind. Act by instinct, express feelings, communicate your emotions using your Soul.

-Control is the ability to control your own being, your own Components.
Being able to endure pain, resist cold/heat, and other physical trials, controlling your Body.
Being able to reason yourself, to have an idea, brainstorm, to convince yourself of a course of action by logical means, using your Mind.
Control your emotions and feelings, have faith (not necessarily in a religious context), to "let go", meditate, to use your Soul for things you wouldnt have thought you could do.

As you can see, the combinations are not straightforward. A Component + a Mean can offer a variety of uses, but that''s the point of the system.
Simulacres used Realms to indicate spheres of effects, they described natural affinity between the being and particular aspects of the environment.

The Realms were :
-Mineral (anything that is not alive, the 4 elements, the sea, mountains, deserts, etc).
-Vegetal , for the plants, forests, vegetation, etc.
-Animal, for non sentient beings. This applied to sentient beings that have a totally different thought process (say, insectoids aliens)
-Human, for sentient beings, and for yourself. This indicate a knowledge of human nature, as much as of oneself. This extands to races/species that are different but with similar thought process (say, orcs)
-Mechanical, for systems, this applies to physical mechanisms, but this also applies to concepts, theories, algorithms, etc.

With these Realms, you could have something like : Perception+Body+Vegetal if you are trying to track someone in the forest.
Perception+Body+Animal if you are trying to recognise the bird calls you are hearing, etc.

Upon this, you can create more and more specialised attributes, for instance, Control+Soul+Human can be used to meditate in a very broad sense, but a Meditate skill could be used to show the specific knowledge of meditation techniques that an individual has.

It works pretty well, and people will usually have a limited set of explicit skills that indicate particular knowledge of an individual. For other skills, a default value is used.
Magic skills and spells are all specific skills to be learned (depending on the universe you play in).

I might be slightly off topic, but I think this is relevant, as it shows you a different approach to what you can see. I dont know any computer game that tried this approach, yet.
Of course, this would be difficult, mostly because of the fredom of interpretation I mentioned, which is the main strength of this system.


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Personally I rely on others to do that kind of work for me. Pick up a D&D 3rd Edition Player''s Handbook and use that as a basis for things like what Weapon Use falls under. I don''t suggest using their races and ideas for the universe and how battle works but it''s nice when your trying to think up useful spells or skills to add in. Do some heavy modifying and add in stuff you like.

Bleu Shift - www.bleushift.tk

As much as I don''t like copying things I must admit that D&D has their ideas in order. My Body skill could be split into Strength and Dexterity, making it slightly more specific but also more appropriate. Also puts that silly Projectile mess to rest.

Spacecat: The last stat was called 'Edge', but just think of it as a wildcard, as experience.

I would call that Wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge based on experience and observation, basically.

My 5 stats would be:

Strength - affects how much heavy weapons slow your attack speed, how much heavy armor slows you down and how much heavy armor or weapons slows your attack rate. Also affects how much damage bows can do (able to pull the drawstring back further).

Dexterity - lets you aim better. In my ideal game, you would never miss people, because it's so annoying whiffing air and it happens a lot in nearly all RPGs. But if the base damage of a weapon is 10-30, a high dexterity can let you do 25-30 damage with it. That's what I mean by aiming better - you can hit the person's vulnerable spots better. Also dexterity would affect your walk/run speed, your speed with casting spells with manual components (hand motions), and it helps you dodge attacks (dodging is automatic but rare unless you have a very high DEX, so usually no one hits air).

Hardiness - Hitpoint regeneration, stamina regeneration (for running/swimming), resistance to time-based damage (poison for example).

Concentration - I hate "Intelligence". All fighters have low "intelligence" in RPGs, which is ridiculous. Why would a stupid person be a better fighter than a smart person? It makes no difference. So there should never be a stat called "intelligence" in my opinion. So I prefer "Concentration", since it begins with CON, I use Hardiness instead of Constitution. Anyway, Concentration affects your special attacks and your spell-casting - it increases the potency (damage or duration) of both. It also increases your speed with casting spells with verbal components.

Wisdom - Increases the rate at which you can cast divine spells - I think you should start being able to cast maybe 2 divine spells per minute, or whatever, and Wisdom can increase that a lot as it gets high. It also gives you resistance to Illusion and Enchantment spells (the wisdom to recognize when you're being fooled) and if there is some sort of experience penalty with death, Wisdom decreases the penalty.

~CGameProgrammer(

[edited by - CGameProgrammer on September 6, 2002 3:08:51 PM]