Here''s a design problem that''s the bane of my existence... Imagine an RTS where each unit has an inventory. Units have a maximum carrying capacity; limited ammunition (grenades, for example); and special devices they can carry that give them different functionality while not necessarily making the unit LOOK different(wirecutters, or scanners). Two obvious problem with this: 1) The idea doesn''t scale well; as you add units, it becomes more difficult to find and manage the item carrying units you want; 2) Strategy becomes problematic, because management confusion could cause the player to lose precious resources not because they messed up, but because of information overload. My solution was a "global inventory" screen. Anything your units came across was first automatically equipped if it was a better class of weapon (this is a game option, btw). At a glance, you could see everything you had. You could highlight an item, and the game would highlight all the units that had it. You could drag and drop to equip the item, and an icon of it would hover over the unit. Units that were low on a common resource (ammo, grenades) would automatically share with nearby units, no matter where they were. The idea mostly leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it cancels strategy. You don''t have to position the guys with the rocket launchers in the right place, you just have to put units in place and drag and drop launchers when necessary. Alternately, I had a clunky idea that units would need to come back to some kind of supply depot in order to rearm. This would be odd, as they''d pick up an item, but would have to come to a different location to use it. Though, since we''re not talking realism, this might work. Any ideas? -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...

Well, you are pretty close

''cept that if you click on the launcher, and see who are all carrying launchers, and then drop a launcher on a front line soldier, one of the launcher-dudes has to actually go there to bring him the device

Advance Wars had a very simple but similar strategic resource limitation. It dealt with it by the use of a Transport vehicle. In addition to carrying ground troops, it would resupply any units next to it. This solution is using a non-combat unit to serve several purposes, so can be strategically used for different situations.

These units become a supply line that could be a stategic target to cut off resources. They would have a large cargo capacity so it could resupply many units in each trip.

Also in Advance Wars:
Copters get supplies by landing on cargo boats.
Units resupply themselves when in "controlled" cities.

AW is a turn-based 2D game, but the concepts could be used for real-time and 3D.

CDV

How about giving the player the ability to set certain equipment rules BEFORE the game starts?

For example:

IF a unit comes across item A and the unit is not one of the following types of soldiers: type A, type B, type C or type D (all types of soldiers that could make use of that item), the unit will find a soldier of those types nearby and give him the item. If no unit of any of the required types is nearby, the unit will pick up the item if space is available in its inventory, or leave the item if no space is available. When returning to base, the item is dropped (so other units can pick it up upon returning to base).

If you give the player the ability to define the type of units and to specify which items they want those units to focus on during the game (which items to look for, which items to disregard) you can let them deal with the items on their own.

Will players have the ability to create squads? In squads, there will be units that specialize in certain things. Those wirecutters would go to the unit(s) that deals with those sort of things (the explosives guy? the scout?). Instead of a global inventory screen, you could have a squad inventory screen. You could set certain minimum aspects. If a certain item has not fallen below the minimum aspect, the items do not show up in the inventory (for example, if the minumum number of grenades that each member in a squad should have is 2, and all units have 3 or more, it would not show up, but if one of the units has only 1 grenade left, that unit would show up in the minimum inventory screen). This way, you as the player can set your own standards for ammunition and such, and you will only be notified if anything is amiss.
For other items though, you''ll want to be notified when they ARE present. Does this squad have wirecutters? If so, have they been given to the correct unit in that squad?

The idea is flawed for an RTS with dozens of units. Commandos 2 has basically the exact same system you described and it was only manageable because there were 4 or 5 units you had to control.
I just don''t think this is practical for an RTS, but if you were making a smaller squad based game...

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Original post by Wavinator
The idea mostly leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it cancels strategy. You don''t have to position the guys with the rocket launchers in the right place, you just have to put units in place and drag and drop launchers when necessary.

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SourceUnit = UnitCarrying(DraggedObject)DestinationUnit = GetUnitPointedAtOnInventory()if (distance(SourceUnit, DestinationUnit) > SOME_ARBITRARY VALUE)    Play("buzz_failure.wav")    PrintMessage("Units are too far apart to transfer item")else    MoveItemFromTo(DraggedObject, SourceUnit, DestinationUnit)end if 

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quote:

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Original post by PouyaCat
''cept that if you click on the launcher, and see who are all carrying launchers, and then drop a launcher on a front line soldier, one of the launcher-dudes has to actually go there to bring him the device

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Hey, I like this. It might work...

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Original post by Warsong02
AW is a turn-based 2D game, but the concepts could be used for real-time and 3D.

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Thanks for this example. I was thinking of drones that flew around and carried stuff between troops. Wasn''t sure how that would look or whether the concept would be worth it, but at least I know another game something like it.

quote:

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Original post by Silvermyst
How about giving the player the ability to set certain equipment rules BEFORE the game starts?

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Yes, maybe. I was thinking of the idea of unit templates, where the player specified what the unit was supposed to be outfitted as. If another unit came across something that wasn''t in its template, it''d try to give it to a unit that was supposed to have it or send it back to base.

quote:

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Will players have the ability to create squads? In squads, there will be units that specialize in certain things.

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There will definitely be squads (in fact, the only way to have lots of units is to have a unit leader, and you can only have so many of those). I hadn''t thought about squad specific screens, mostly because it seemed that one was easier to manage. Maybe there''s a way of blending both ideas? If there was one inventory screen, maybe it could be segmented into different sections, each corresponding to where one of the squads was in spatial relation to any other. (erm... maybe not...)

Your points remind me that I need to think harder about the idea of essential and non-essential information, though. If the wirecutters are vital, you should be able to tag the units that have them. Conversely, if you don''t care about grenades at the moment, you really won''t want to see them.




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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote:

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Original post by mumboi
The idea is flawed for an RTS with dozens of units. Commandos 2 has basically the exact same system you described and it was only manageable because there were 4 or 5 units you had to control.
I just don't think this is practical for an RTS, but if you were making a smaller squad based game...

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I could also turn this idea on its head. I could have up to 4-5 "inventory dumps" that move around. You wouldn't be able to control what the units used, but by putting stuff into a dump next to them they'd automatically use it.

quote:

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Original post by Kylotan
SourceUnit = UnitCarrying(DraggedObject)
DestinationUnit = GetUnitPointedAtOnInventory()
if (distance(SourceUnit, DestinationUnit) > SOME_ARBITRARY VALUE)
Play("buzz_failure.wav")
PrintMessage("Units are too far apart to transfer item")
else
MoveItemFromTo(DraggedObject, SourceUnit, DestinationUnit)
end if

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LOL! Nice psuedocode.

It might be interesting to actually give units ranges that they can transfer items, and even increase the range sort of as a RPG style leveling up mechanism (iow, the drone idea I mentioned above; drones fly back and forth between units).

But if you or a computer opponent can thwart an attack by "instantaneously" changing weapons, is that still strategy. It seems to me that you lose a bit if you don't enforce placement of the proper resources in the proper location. Because the computer will always be able to drag & drop faster than the player, I can see players complaining that their great air calvary manuever was thwarted simply because grenadiers morphed into RPG carriers.

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm still mulling this over...


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Just waiting for the mothership...

[edited by - Wavinator on August 5, 2002 2:28:48 AM]

btw, it might help for me to post a bit more on what I'm trying to accomplish.

I've never seen a scalable RPG that slips between being focused around an individual the player "levels up" and a group they raise in both level and number (if you have, please let me know SO I CAN STUDY THAT GAME! ).

Anyways, I want players to be able to buy or discover cool stuff and be able to outfit their minions with whatever they don't use. Like mumboi said, this doesn't work for lots of units. But I'm stubborn, and I'm still trying to find a paradigm that makes it work.

Right now, the idea Warsong02 and PouyaCat suggested sounds appealing. Silvermyst's ideas about preconfigured settings might work just as well.

I'm trying to think... a real general doesn't worry about what everyone's carrying. I'm remembering the movie Blackhawk Down where soldiers were expected to have a standard outfitting (and took losses because of outfitting mistakes).

I don't think players would necessarily mind a unit picking up and suddenly using a new item, as long as it wasn't stupid (say, rocket launchers into your own troops doing splash damage).

The more important problem is making sure that units have the right stuff, and that the folks with above average stuff (mini-nuke, for example vs. commonplace rifles) are displayed appropriately.



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Just waiting for the mothership...


[edited by - Wavinator on August 5, 2002 2:28:18 AM]

Followup Question: (Running with the template idea here.) What if players got a rough idea of what they''d need units to bring for an encounter based on intelligence about a target? Players would outfit based on the amount of time they expected to be out (20 minutes of ammo, for example).

If the mission went long, players could (at risk) resupply. Units would automatically try to pick up resources and items they needed if not resupplied. So if you''re commando is suddenly using a pistol when he should be using a rocket launcher, you''ll know why.

Players could also designate objectives to their units. Say you''ve got a bomb pack to blow up a bridge. You mark the bridge with the bomb pack. The unit that''s carrying the bomb would be highlighted with a bomb icon.

If the unit gets killed in combat, the next closest guy (first in the squad, then in general) picks up the bomb pack because it''s important to the objective. He then attempts to complete the objective. If the bomb pack is out of some range, maybe the units could request the player to allow them to search for it.

In order to prevent stupidity where one guy gets killed, drops the bomb, then another and another and another get killed trying to get it, I''m thinking either there should be some kind of notification or units should try to automatically secure the area around the object they want (much harder proposition, but also much smarter).

Any thoughts?

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Just waiting for the mothership...