To start, what Im proposing is a Pay Service for an upscaled version of Counter-Strike that allows for more organized play than can be found in both the Public Server play and even in Clan communities. Here are the details and reasoning: (not too long ) Has anyone here ever played Laser-Tag. The nice thing about going to a laser-tag game compared to trying to find a public Counter-Strike game is that the laser-tag game is moderated by a human-being who divides the teams fairly based on player experience. In a CS game the teams get stacked and you most often find you self on either side of a boring situation: your on the losing team with a team score of 0 wins, or your on the winning team and getting no competition from the other side. The other problem that occurs is that even if you do have a good game going, players up and leave either team, thus upsetting what WAS a good game. Now I know all of you CS fanatics will say "Dude!, Public play is only for practice, not for playing organized scrim play. You need to join a clan!", and I know this. The only problem is that there is very little organization to the way in which clans compete and scrim. Trying to get 5 of my friends together on one server is very tough, and what about pple who dont belong to a clan, or dont want to belong to one? Enter a new game idea! A Pay service for CS Scrimming and matching similar to paying for Everquest or other RPG type games (not similar to the games, just the pay part). In this scenario, you have pple who come into a match-making area first, and a HUMAN moderator divides the teams fairly, and also checks for cheaters ect..Then the game starts, but with a couple twists on the original CS game First, the Idea of having a commander/non-player position. When CS 1.4 came out w/ the overhead obeserver mode (the one w/ the whole map and characters are circles) I thought that it would be a great Idea to implement a command position where one player doesnt actually play but directs the action as a commander, using a modified version of that overhead map, as well as all the other spec modes except modified of course so that the commander cannot see the enemy players or be in free-look mode. This command position could be a rotating position of course. The commander could have a host of tools that allow him to send waypoints and even take up specific positions/paths of movements in a micro-managed firefight. And if players do not do what the commander says, you have the moderator to put players in oberserver mode if the player misbehaves or doesnt follow orders from the commander. Second, I also thought of a further modification that expands a bit on the original CS idea of having objectives (bomb a site, rescue hosties). The problem with CS now is after awhile players get tired of playing a game where they KNOW where the bomb site is, and they KNOW where the hosties are. The way CS is now, once you have played a map a few times, the variation in game play and predicatbility becomes quite boring and monotonous. Well, what if you had a much larger playing area, and each teams commander could have about 20 seconds or so of pre-game setup where they decide where to have there teams placed in certain predefined zones and have ANY place in a certain zone a legitmate bomb-site/hostage site. There would obviously be restrictions as to which zones the CT''s and T''s could place there teams start positions/objective sites, but given a larger map, say a map the size of decent size college campus w/ many multi-story buildings, the re-playability of just ONE map would make almost every game totally different from the last. There it is.. tell me what you think? How much would people pay for a Counter-Strike Extreme Online Matching and Scrimming service? I would personally pay 20 bucks a month to be able to go into a well organized game anytime of day and play a great game of CS Extreme.

20 bucks a month to play an outdated engine.

Why not take your idea, and apply it to a game that''s engine isn''t prehistoric.

There are hundreds of mods for the Half-Life engine out and they are free. I seriously doubt that people will pay $20 a month for a mod just like the rest.


I know only that which I know, but I do not know what I know.

Well actually Daishi, if you read the post, you would see that im not just proposing a new mod, but an actual SERVICE, one that is moderated REAL HUMANS throughout the play of the game. Tell me one FPS game that does that? Like I said, you would feel like you walked into a Laser-Tag game, but in a virtual sense. As well, name one mod for an FPS that has a commander that does only that?. This idea would make the game more organized, and people would specialize in building tactics as commanders, and certain people would become famous in the community as being great commanders. So no, what Im proposing is something much more organized then the typical Half-Life mod.

As to the remark about the engine being old: this is true, however this very same engine is probably the most played on engine in history next to the Quake series. Counter-Strike is by far one of the most successful and still the most played FPS mod to date. But dont think I dont feel somewhat the way you do: People might find it hard to actually PAY for playing in this engine. I personally dont even know if the engine could work on the larger scales im proposing. So, you are right a newer, different and even more secure engine would attract people better. The reason I wanted to stick w/ the Counter-Strike game is because I dont want to recreate the wheel: Counter-Strikes firing, damage, and movement models are fine-tuned and people play the game in droves for these very reasons. In that case one would have to re-build these firing models from scratch in a new engine.

Thanks for the comments.. and btw.. 20 bucks a month was kind of joke, but maybe not since im proposing actually paying staff to do this work.

quote: Original post by TheEnderBean
this very same engine is probably the most played on engine in history next to the Quake series.

Half-Life is built on Quake 1, with bits of Quake 2 added in.



Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates
- sleeps in a ham-mock at www.thebinaryrefinery.cjb.net

No personal attacks, AP.

If you have a point to make, make it reasonably and respectfully, or don't post here.

[edited by - Wavinator on July 1, 2002 12:58:56 PM]

quote: How much would people pay for a Counter-Strike Extreme Online Matching and Scrimming service?

I wouldn''t be willing to pay for such a service. I play CS regularly, and I rarely have a hard time finding a good game to join. Playing against an evenly-matched team is fun, and playing against a heavily-stacked team is pretty fun, too (similar to what the recent AP mentioned). Regarding cheaters, I''m not sure how much more effective a human moderator would be versus CSGuard and kick-votes -- in any case, I''m certainly not bothered by cheaters often enough that I would pay money to avoid them.

Regarding your idea for a commander, I think there''s a recent game that has something along these lines (maybe it was an "intel officer" or something). If you want to require players to obey the commander, you could simply give *him* the power to kick players to observer mode... I don''t think that a moderator would be necessary.

As for map variety, it''s been my experience that players don''t like being lost on a new map. They like playing the same old map over and over again, and I wouldn''t say that it gets monotonous. Having a larger map with varying objective locations sounds interesting, though. One problem with large maps is that people get spread out and it takes forever for the round to complete.

There are a lot of CS players, but CS was free to begin with, and I don''t think you''re going to be able to squeeze any money outta them with your idea.

first off, many good servers already have moderaters who admin the server. some are mean, some are not. you moderators could not know who plays good or not unless you keep stats which would be pretty meaningless since the game is not based on kill/death alone. its a team game with objectives. most players dislike being on the team they dont want to play on. they will leave the match and join one in which they can play the team the went. this is especially true for ppl who play online with friends.

5mins (though mahy servers run 3mins) rounds are VERY short. there is no way a commander could do anythign useful. there already is a built in planning time. most servers turn it off, or lower it to 5 seconds. it used to be around 10-15 seconds. also hl cant handle huge outdoor maps, or huge maps in general. the engine is not designed to push the polys in that fashion. you would be raising the required min pc by quite a bit.

ppl play cs as if it were team deathmatch. ts cant camp the hostages or ppl complain. cts cant camp the bomb site or ppl complain. ppl get sick of waiting 3mins. imagine a large map, and waiting 5mins or even 7mins if you get killed early? players need to play the game correctly and try to play as a team. try to complete the objectives, anmd not worry about their stupid kill/death ratio. also i think it would help things if maps were slightly larger, but players need to respawn after some time (a la global warfare). you cant have large maps with longer battles, yet ince you die your dead till the next round. it gets rather boring sittin there and watching. another reason why NOONE would pay for such a service. why should i pay money to join a server, and i may get killed early in the round and sit there like a moron for most of the round waiting for the next one?

maps getting boring? complain to the idiots that hate any of the new ones. very few servers run new maps because the cs community as a whole are immature. there is no one creating map packs, and too many newbies running default setting servers. in fact the cs team REMOVED maps from the distro. notable the assaination and escape levels. yep thats right, two modes of gameplay that are supported, dont ahve any maps with the newer versions. i have 161 maps for cs. though servers only play about 3 maps (de_dust, de_dust2, de_aztec) most of the time. most ppl have not even played the new maps with teh new version since no one likes them since they suck at the map. they rather play de_dust since they know it so well and everyone raves about it (i think the map is pretty boring and VERY ugly).

the idea that a "commander" player could kick whoever he wants to observer mode is even stupider then having paid ppl to police the server. some random idiot can control the team? hwo silly is that. now i join a server and the commander dont like me so he boots me to being an observer. or i play well and am doing better then the commander, so he kicks me so his score can get better (in fact admins have done this to me at times, especially if they were on the losing team with their clanmates making up the team).

you want oragnize gameplay? find one of those cheap game hosting sites which lets you rent part of a server to run cs on it. then you are the admin and can police the server. you can even have it password protected and only give the password to ppl you know who will play by the rules. being the admin you can force even teams, kick obnoxious players, etc. make the server public and have good friends help police the server. amke it known that the server is meant to be played as cs and not deathmatch i the motd. set teh preplan time to a decent amount. though i think cs needs a drawblae map (a la myth) to make planning time worthwhile. have newer maps in the rotation so gameplay dont get stale. get the escape and assaination levels to help increase the varity.

ppl who dont belong to a clan, dont care about organized team play. they play so they can get good scores for themselves. they play for high kill/death ratios (pretty much a meaningless number in cs since its about the team doing good, not just a play or two). most teams lose because the are not playing as a team.

why dont you make a nice large level? the tools are freely availible. you can see why the maps are the size they are. hl is old, and outdated. its not optimized liek the newer engines. its meant for in door style levels. ut on the other hand could handle something like a campus. it has a better system designed to hanlde out areas and indoor areas well.

just remember, the larger the map, the longer the gameplay time required, the more aimless walking, the more the team gets seperated, the more pl who get killed early will quite because they dont want to what 10mins for the next round. you need to know the target else you cant expect the players to find it. it will get tiresome searching for the target each round. again, especially if you get sniped early. plus there are likly to be spots on the map that are very easy to gaurd (ie only one entrance). also who gets to decide where the item goes? a random person? just go through in order? a tough call.

new cs versions actually REMOVED the randomness you talk about because ppl disliked it so much. ts cant move the hostages anymore. the reason? made the matches too long since the ts would camp out while the cts looked aimlessly. made for a long boring wait for the ppl hwo died early in the match. but quite strategic since a single t could win by hiding the hostages well even if he was going against an entire ct team. the t would eventually be found if the match time was long enough, but since cts would be dispersed, its easier for the t to take them down one at a time. also if the hostages die, the t just needs to hide since the cts can only win by killing the t. again slows gameplay, and ppl area against that because they want fast action, but fake realism.

try playing sum of all fears. nice realistic game with pretty large maps.

try sof2, the random levels are HUGE. exactly what you are looking for. though many ppl disliek them since the game turns into a snipe fest. thoughs ince you respawn in ctf or team deathmatch its ok. infiltration however woudl get boring (and i dont think the random maps support that) since you woudl have to wait so long. rounds last about 15-20mins.

i dont even attempt to understand why ppl play cs as much as they do now. all of teh good levels are never played. new levels are not on any server. ppl play it as if it were deathmatch. each version gets worse. accuarcy continues to drop for guns while features are removed (like ts moving hostages or the other gamplay style maps). oh well, fortunatly there are MUCH better games out there to play.

To A Person: Fisrt off, you make great points about pple not wanting to pay to sit around dead.. and I''ve actually thought about the same idea you had which would be to have a minute long death time.. than you respawn.. and for the big map you could have a slighly longer map time. I disagree that 5 minutes is not enough time making a commander "meaningless". This is not true in real-life.. as real life battles last only a couple minutes if that... and the commander makes all the differnce. But Im also proposing the possibility of having lets say 8 different possible bomb plant spots, and in the pre-game they decide which one to go for. Once its selected, they must bomb that objective. And as in real-life, the CT''s dont know (often) the exact spot the T''s plan to bomb. THe commander will actually steer the action more because every bomb-site entrance will have a camera, and during pre-game the commander for that round will decide who to give the heart-monitor''s to. These heart-monitors/ coupled w/ camera''s will allow the commander to direct their teams toward the action, or a couple of pple to check out a disturbance (destroyed camera, or smoked up room.. which could be a deploy). If you dont know how Heart-Monitors work, basically they detect nearby heartbeats, so that when the commander is traking in team in the 2d overhead view, they can see enemies around corners ect. Do you see now how this might work? And I agree about the respawn idea.

You also mis-understood on a couple points, one of which I dis-agree to a point. On the point of commanders being able to kick: Everything you said is true if commanders could boot pple and such, which is why I never suggested such a silly idea.. only the MODERATOR who is not in anyway biased, will have the ability to resolve any major conflicts which may result in booting disturbing players. This is a checks and balances system, and also remember that the commander position would be alternating, meaning one person does not have to be the commander the whole time because they might like to play as well.

Also the other point about the moderater spliting up teams and theories about elite players and teamplay: First off I would only suggest that the Moderator do what Marshals do for a typical real-life Laser-Tag game, which is to ask who has played longer, and who considers themselves good or belongs to leagues ect.. but now that I think about it, every player is registered and we would keep detailed stats on that player. About your argument that a player w/ a 66 percent kill death ratio does not make a differnce, its all about teamplay: I dare you to put the 5 best players on one team and let the other team have average shooters, and then place a bet w/ me on which team will win. Somehow I dont think you would bet on the rookie team. Usually, the guys w/ good K/D ratios have played awhile and also are familiar w/ teamplay, and in fact, use thier teammates and teamplay to help them achieve thier high scores: Because when you work together w/ someone you tend to do better than when you run solo all the time. Ingorant noobs who think they are playing Quake go run point and lay down like a 2 dolla ho, wheras good players run w/ thier teammates. So I totally have to disagree on that point because this is a tried and true practice in just about any teamsport from Basketball to QSar (Laser-Tag), and always plays out to be true in Counter-Strike: Never Stack Teams.. its just suks.

Anyway, there are bound to be little issues, and in general I would just solve them by giving the benefit to the customer. For instance you argue about pple wanting to be on the team they want be on or play w/ who they want to. You dont think that cant be solved for the most part? Brainstorm, solve the problem.. dont just throw an idea out the window because of a little issue. I would solve it by first off, giving priority to people who show up first in a game room which has a pre-set time schedule available to everyone. Now, nothing can be done about making everyone happy and being on the team they want, and this is true by pure logic and is true in CS right now. If everyone got thier own way, one team would always have way more players than the other.. compromises must be made.. sometimes I have to play w/ the lameass Ak47 as a T because there is no room on CT which I prefer.. thats just a fact. So, I think good ole fasion first come first serve is a good policy. Also, I would give priority to lets say 4 or less pple wearing clan tags. This means that they will be grouped on the same teams, or if they would like to divide than that is fine as well. The reason I say 4, is because anymore then the clan should go to the Clan Scrim rooms, where clan memembers join chat/match making rooms and talk crap to one another until they decide to scrim right there.

Anyway, my point is that a little creative thinking can solve any number of technicalities. But this is why I need you to keep bringing up anything else that might not work or could pose a problem. Thanks for your insights.

quote:
Original post by TheEnderBean
First, the Idea of having a commander/non-player position. When CS 1.4 came out w/ the overhead obeserver mode (the one w/ the whole map and characters are circles) I thought that it would be a great Idea to implement a command position where one player doesnt actually play but directs the action as a commander, using a modified version of that overhead map, as well as all the other spec modes except modified of course so that the commander cannot see the enemy players or be in free-look mode. This command position could be a rotating position of course. The commander could have a host of tools that allow him to send waypoints and even take up specific positions/paths of movements in a micro-managed firefight. And if players do not do what the commander says, you have the moderator to put players in oberserver mode if the player misbehaves or doesnt follow orders from the commander.

that and the idea of "reinforcements" is WHAT GLOBAL OPERATIONS IS ALL ABOUT!!! have you ever heard of it? it''s CS with all those named by you "enhacements".

go check it out: http://www.globalopsgame.com/



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shurcool
my project