... [Edited by - Lohrno on December 3, 2004 10:40:12 AM]

I absolutely love Cel Shading, but it depends on how it''s done. SMileBit, creators of Jet Set Radio, are possibly the best at handling this technique of gaphics.

I really despise the Cel Shading in Zelda, however...

-Mac

I like it, as a change. I certainly like it more than the boring low-contrast, low-saturation, browny-grey textures that always seem to go along with 3D FPSs and RPGs.

But I think it will be, as you say, a bit of a fad. I don''t 3D cel-shading can achieve the style and look of true 2D, but then, it''s probably not trying to.

I think Cel Shading gives back the outlook that sprite games used to offer. The one that says "Theres no way you can make this look real, so instead, lets make it pretty and great on its own merits." I think developers will make the mistake of just converting the graphics over to the solid color cartoon look and expect the get the same respect as a developer who did it right. WildArms3 hasn''t been released yet, but from what I know about it, its Cel Shading done right. I base this on the fact that WA3 has a filter on the cel shading that gives characters a pencil drawn look, which is very different from just a solid color feel.

Its a change from the norm, which I''d think we would want to see more of, considering that the norm is "boring low-contrast, low-saturation, browny-grey textures that always seem to go along with 3D FPSs and RPGs."

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

When done right, it''s not bad. I''m not going crazy over it though. I think if you want to not have the boring browny-grey games, then stop making the colours browny-grey... =)

------------
http://aud.vze.com <-- Newbie alert, look at your own risk. Can induce severe laughing fits and other variations of hysterical outburst.

It looks...interesting, but I don''t like it when it is included and then marketing exclaims that it is a wonderful feature because it looks like a cartoon. I''ve watched cartoons all my life. It don''t look like any damn cartoon I''ve ever seen.

If anyone wants a cartoony graphic feature that looks good, then they should try to do it like any of the computer generated cartoons done by the people who brought us Reboot, the last couple series of Transformers, the Starship Troopers cartoon based on the movie, and WarPlanets I believe as well.

it all depends on the artists behind the model creation. cell shading is a great technique, but must be used properly and not be the focus of the game. its should seem natural, and not like the developers were trying to put a bunch of spiffy looking things together. for instance most games the first few levels look awsome, but seem forced since the artists attempted to use all the effects wizardry they could, even if it was not needed for the "look" they were going for. its also very apparent on the last few levels. this produces a bit of inconsistecny in which certain parts of the world (or certain levels) look exceptionally better then the rest thus reduce the overall "goodness" feeling of the game (ie it feels awkward). there is nothing wron with using some whizbang special effects, just make sure it fits where it should be, and it is not being used just because it can be done.

For anyone interested in knowing what great cel shading is...or hasn''t seen it yet, go over to www.sega.com and look at SmileBit (developers) and their games Jet Grind Radio and Jet Set Radio Future. Try looking both those games up on the net. Jet Set Radio Future is the newest of the series and shows the power of Cel Shaded graphics...

Very impressive...

-Mac

People seem to either love cel-shading and think it''s the greatest thing on Earth, or hate it with a passion. Most of the people that really love cel-shading really love 2D games also. Most of the people that hate it seem to be hardcore FPS people and realism fanatics. I''m pretty much indifferent, I think it''s a cool rendering style and a good alternative. NPR techniques are (generally) easier to implement than some of the more complex "realistic" techniques now a days. Cel-shading, like anything else, is cool if it''s implemented correctly.

actually, npr techniques are ussually more difficult because you are basing them on a surreal enviroment thus require artistry to do correctly. furthermore, since the real world is already defined pretty celarly and what many gamers unfrotunatly are looking for, video cards are optimized for "realistic" shading and effects. cell shading is more intensive to the card then doing normal "realsitic" shading. things like pnecil skecth style require even more horsepower. the farther you go from the traditional render techniques the more the video card and cpu will work.

it seems easier because you have less to simulate. for instance shadows can be simple, there may be no need of soft shadows in your world. though by the same token, shading the models (with cell shading) may require mulitple textures to handle lighting properly. since you can use the traditional light calculation methods, which modern cards accelerate.

dont get me wrong, uber realism is difficult as well, but you have more of a fudge factor because the brain while noticing the missing details, will also fill them in. npr techniques ussually rely on this to a further extent and will play with perception in many cases to acheive the look.

trust me, soft shadows is nothing compared to a water color painted world. a pencil sketch world is also mighty difficult. though most npr techniques mimic some form of real world stylized art, thus thankfully have some way of defining them.


(assume constant lighting, constant surface on the apple since changing the actual apple would make the ENTIRE discussion moot)
in the real world an apple is shaded in only one way, yet with stylized npr techniues the apple can be shaded in many different ways. even cell shading styles are different, some use more shades then others. some use linear shades, others use a more logrithmic scale, while still others use a hand picked scale. some use thick outlines, others thin outlines. some dont even have outlines. some artists may use realistic models, others use anime style, while still others use marvel style. heck some may even use a style from a less mimiced culture like european, african, latin, etc (though i am not sure in what ways there "toon" art differs, or if they even have such styles).

now the funny somewaht contradictory statement. this is not to say npr techniques are always more diffiuclt then "realistic" techniques. just that they require more creativity, and you must "fight" with the video card a bit because of what they are designed to render.