Delpi is stupid. No help for you.

Useful..

Sounds like the Ultima Online Stats system but without seeing the numbers, in my opinion seeing them is part of the fun, and the only thing I complain about UO system is that 700 points max limits your char a lot, creating the need for mules (characters with no combat skills that make things like armour, weapons, clothes and even food for your warriors).

Well it''s been a while since I posted but I like this topic...

That game by the developers of B&W is called Project Ego...

I think the idea is good but needs refining. The idea of having no numbers is bad. Every player wants to see how far he''s progressed. I don''t care if you are in denial and are so-called "hardcore." Unless the game is a bunch of roleplaying (in which case it''s not much of a game, just a social convention), you need numbers and players need to see those numbers. If you don''t know how strong you are how are you ever gonna know when to stop training or such. I believe the best way to tackle this idea is to show representation in the form of going to places. Just like Bishop said earlier. Having a spar session with the local sword master could tell you about how good you are with a sword, while he might not be able to call you a master you''ll be able to know when you''ve surpassed him. A, what cha ma call it, exercise course or whatever could test your dexterity. A race against a friend could test speed, etc. Then somewhere you might want to have a dialog screen where you can see how well your doing in comparison to your current enviroment. Say, you just met the big bad boss of the next town. The sword skill comparison could be based on how well he fought and killed the best swordsman in town. Maybe I''m being a bit repetative but I hope you get the idea. You need some form of numbers wether approximate or excat. Anyway, I''ll stop now...

yes, the numbers still exist- but they water the game
down. it turns a would-be interactive story into a
statistics engine. The player doesnt need to see
all the little details that make up your game..
just like you dont notify the user that you''ve passed
a variable to X function.. its happening anyway!

-eldee
;another space monkey;
[ Forced Evolution Studios ]

This is the great debate. =D Stats vs no Stats in RPGs. I think though that if you don''t go the stats route, you may want to at least give status bars or little hearts or something. What would be really cool of course is the greater your strength, the more beefy (ripped) you look. But if you give no indication how strong your characters will be, then I think you are setting yourself up for dissappointment. Personally, I am ok with not seeing stats as long as I can have some other clues. I think most people like stats better though.

-=Lohrno

Face it, the characters will have numbers. This fighter is stronger than this mage because of a number somewhere thats bigger on one and smaller on the other. If you completely abstract this process, you''ll only confuse the players. With that said, the player needs some indication as to whats what in the world.

* Traditionally, RPGs just give a sheet or screen where the numbers are displayed in their raw (uncalculated) formats. The player can then guess who''d do more damage using what.

* Meters, or Titles do effectively the samething, just the raw numbers have been calculated to produce a length of color, or a bit of text.

Heres the alternative thinking.

* Competitions, Athlons, and other sporting events can give indications as to what strengths your characters have.

Also, you said theres No Levels. However, the stats grow based on your actions... well, thats effectively a level system, just you haven''t let one number control all of the others. In which I recommend having separate EXP counters for each stat and then dishing out EXP to each category based on what you''re doing. Here, I recommend played SaGa Frontier on the PSX, which had a hidden EXP system that does basically what I just explained.

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

I would love to play a crpg where the stats were not presented as raw stats, but skillfully woven into the game as others have mentioned. In my opinion, saying that abstraction of the numbers is essentially still having numbers is missing the point. Yes you still need some point of reference to anchor your progress, but why not do it in a way that makes sense inside the gameworld itself? To me, having a bunch of seperate screens (or worse, numbers over the gameplay screen) is a world of difference from having these represented in context. The immersion factor is just so much greater with a clean interface. To borrow a film term, I would much rather play in a diagetic world than to be constantly intruded upon by a non-diagetic one.

I realize this is not possible with some game genres, but I believe it can be done with a cleverly designed RPG. Rather than having the player endlessly perusing weapon and armour stats, for example, have the blacksmith/merchant verbally appraise the condition of your current equipment, and perhaps suggest some better pieces (which might also add the interesting question of how much you trust the vendor...). Have party members comment on the viability of their own or the players abilities for a particular task ("Zukan is the strongest, let him try to bend those bars"). Heck, use the players internal monologue if you need to ("Those guards might be a little too much for me to handle right now"). Who cares if there is ultimately numbers behind all this, think of how much more interesting and involving it would be if you had to make real judgement calls instead of just number crunching. I think there is a great opportunity here to do something innovative.

[edited by - R0B0T0 on May 29, 2002 9:20:02 AM]

The problem with stats in most RPGs is that they don''t really represent skills or abilities in a realistic way. I mean, is my programming skill (in real life) 57%, or 10 points, or level 12? In most games, there isn''t really a difference between a skill of 50% and a skill of 51% except to give you some sense of accomplishment. Numerical stats of some sort are necessary in pen and paper games, but they can easily be hidden from the player in PC and videogames.

Hiding stats away from the player, but using the same methods internally isn''t a good idea. Players should have some sort of sense of increase. Either gaining whole new abilities, or gaining big increases in old abilities. Alternatively, you could show ability increase visually (like project ego, muscle mass increasing, etc.) or use realistic (how much a character can bench, their IQ, etc.) or abstract (good, bad, ugly, terrible, amazing) stats.

quote: Original post by Buster
Delpi is stupid. No help for you.

You should at least spell it right(Delphi), if you want to diss it(sorry, I don''t like people, who diss something without giving a reason).

Well, I like the idea of allowing the player to check his stats at certain areas, like a carnival. When you then give the player a certain number, like "You were able to lift ...lbs." or "You lasted for(defeated him in) ..minutes against their best swordmaster."

But I won''t really be able to show the increase of stats by graphics, because I will be making a 2d snes style engine(with mouse control). I will be doing this for 2 reasons:
1. To take the focus off graphics and to gameplay.
2. I think it''s too difficult for me to do, because I am creating everything(except for bitmaps) in Delphi, without ANY third party components/programs.

Oh and the increase/decrease of stats because of usage will happen within timeframes, for instance, for every minute you battle(melee/hand-to-hand) your strength will increase by one(on a scale of 1 to 1000, with 100 being the average)

Any more suggestions would be VERY welcome.

Delphi is the best language around.