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Viability of PermaDeath

Started by April 16, 2002 02:24 AM
32 comments, last by Saluk 22 years, 8 months ago
Bleh, I think a modern version of those old BBS games like mutants(SOO DAMN ADDICTING) and tradewars(Turn based in a way, yet realtime too) would be very economical if done right... anyways to the perma death issue...

To me permadeath sounds like a failure when i think of online games just because sooo many things can go wrong!! the idea of putting so much time into something which can be gone in less then a second does not sound like "fun"... if you think about reality(real life here) and ignore actual life and death, people have ups and downs in the careers, social lifes, bank account ballance etc right... these happen over long periods of time ussually and can be seen as a methaphor for the time spent playing a game. the only real truely sudden, tragic, permenent thing that can happen in our lives is death. why recreate that in a game where we want to PLAY and not LIVE, we truely live in real life and play a character the lives in the game but note, we are the integral part the chartacter we play so in essense we're pretending to live throuh that character so a perma death would be pretty painful none the less. Now to the point....

Just like our ups and downs in life, i think this is how a character should evolve as well and i think death should be one of those downs, or ups if you provoke death onto others(death and life are almost always main themes in any game, their bassically staples of every game! we're violent gamers ). So if you die in a game you should have to pay a price, their are to many to list, but losing everything seems so pointless, do we really want to correlate real life with online life when it comes to games which we divest alot of time?? if you say yes, i have no idea how you would fix the problem of lag deaths, hacks, just pure bad luck, computer crashes, getting tk'd via a horde of 100 people vs 1(i played UO Alot!), how would you calculate RISK!! since you could die at any place doing anything almost. it all sounds like a messy divorce to me... and don't most of these games have the concept of a soul, magic, legends, the undead, ressurection etc...

if people want perma death i say make a duel like scenrio where both people agree and accept the conditions and can fight it out in a monitored arena. wouldn't that be the ultimate rush?? challenge your most hated enemy and get all his spoils and braging rights if you win, and if you lose well... hope you fought well... then next time you see each other maybe a new spark of competition might fly or a friendship kindled... and of course the one who lost will be earning back his or her skills maybe for another eventual duel.. i can see this working especially well if your able to have multiple characters to fall back on so to speak... but if you died your ego, your flagship character will be gone... maybe marked with a tombstone of such in some shrine of the brave people who dared to go to a duel.

hope that gives someone something to think about...

Mirek


[edited by - Mirek Heikkila on April 17, 2002 3:37:34 AM]
ya ya it''s me..
I think the more your game is a level treadmill, the worse perma-death gets. If the point of the game is to slowly build up to level 50, you really don''t want to die at level 35. The more time you have to invest in a character, the worse it is when they die. Compare that to a game where how good your character is is mostly related to how good the player is. In that case perma-death may not be so bad. You may lose some items and some accomplishments but you can be back to where you were character-wise pretty quickly if the game is mostly skill based.

The other thing I would point out is that appealing to morality will not work. It just won''t, not for a large community. People are often very rude over email and newsgroups because of the ease and anonymity of computer use. Now add to that the fact that player killing doesn''t even hurt anyone at all. There is very little moral incentive to be "nice" in a MMORPG.

You would never think that someone would take a look at Quake and say "my god, I can''t slaughter all these poor monsters!" Or "that marine I just fragged probably had a wife and kids!" The same holds for a MMORPG. Killing people in real life is wrong. Killing people in a MMORPG isn''t wrong unless you roleplay it to be so. Fundamentally it isn''t something to feel very guilty about.
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quote: I think the more your game is a level treadmill, the worse perma-death gets.


Bingo.

If you want to create a game with perma-death, you have to drastically change the type of game you use it in. You can''t just say ''this game is great, let''s add perma-death''. Indeed, current MMORPGs would NOT function with perma-death. Death comes too easy, risks are not always easily determined, and the general lifespan of a character is too long.

First things first...

If you opt for perma-death, you have to shorten the average lifespan of a character and base your game on that. If you figure that the average character will live for only 20 real life hours, you can adjust your gameplay to that. If it''s shorter than 20, you need to increase the intensity of the gameplay; if it''s longer than 20, you can decrease the intensity of the gameplay.

Compare the two following:

Arcade fighting game vs MMORPG

Most arcade fighting game matches last only a few minutes. There is usually a tournament mode where you can beat several opponents in a row, but even then, the total time it takes to ''beat'' the game is usually less than an hour. The gameplay intensity is high, the character lifespan short.

MMORPGs are almost the complete opposite. The entire game is basically a tournament mode, with thousands upon thousands of mini-battles. The total time it takes to ''beat'' the game (reach highest level is probably most desired goal) can take weeks of real playing hours. Gameplay intensity is low (you sometimes have to travel for hours just to get to your destination), character lifespan high.

Arcade fighting games wouldn''t benefit from perma-death, because the lifespan of the character is too short. Current MMORPGs wouldn''t benefit from perma-death, because the lifespan of the character is too long. To create a game using perma-death, you''d have to find a game somewhere in the middle of the two. A game that gives a player the chance to develop a character, but at the same time a game that allows a player to quickly dive back into the game when the character dies. The action should be intense from the get-go, without too much of a delay (not the ''you have to first gain some levels before you actually have fun'' idea). Successful characters should get a reward in the form of even more intense gameplay, not just numerical changes or better equipment etc.

You either believe that within your society more individuals are good than evil, and that by protecting the freedom of individuals within that society you will end up with a society that is as fair as possible, or you believe that within your society more individuals are evil than good, and that by limiting the freedom of individuals within that society you will end up with a society that is as fair as possible.
"Permanent" is a misnomer. If it was permanent you couldn''t even be resurrected.

If I was designing the game, I would make it so being brought back to life after dying would be common place, or at least something attainable by the majority of players.

First of all, on death I would disable that character''s login. The player would then have to use another existing character, or create a new one, to continue playing the game.

Next, I would make it so the character''s dead body could be carried like an object, even by other players. The body could then be taken to a priest or something of the sort, and brought back to life.

After some time, a dead body would decay into bones. I would even consider allowing the character to be brought back at this point as well. Interesting quests could involve finding the gravesite of someone and bringing them back. Some cool possibilities would be altering the character so that they would be in effect, "undead". They could then be affected by undead spells and the like. Heh.

Immediately upon resurrection the login would be re-enabled, and the player could then log back in to that character and resume playing.

This creates the possibility that at the least, someone could create a "temporary" character to go and attempt a recovery of their primary character''s body.

Another possibility is that, after taking out someone, you haul their dead body to a remote prison and resurrect their character. They would then be able to log back in to their character but would find themselves locked in jail! Heh. Time to create a temp character and round up a rescue party.

Just some thoughts.

Care.

Florida, USA
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quote: "Permanent" is a misnomer. If it was permanent you couldn''t even be resurrected.


Yes, the not-resurrectable would be part of ''permanent death''.

Otherwise, you''re just creating an alternative to existing death-penalties (experience loss, item loss, back to previously saved point, etc).

The whole point of permanent death is to make it just that: permanent.

The first game that I ever played where I enjoyed permanent death is a game called Rogue.

You start the game at dungeon level 1 and penetrate deeper and deeper into the depths of the structure. You find items, weapons and spells. The game was very simple, but a lot of fun. And I think the best part was that if you died... you died. That''s it. Character''s dead. Gravestone will display the name if you scored high enough. Start over and try to learn from your deadly mistake.

The best part about the permanent death was that each game was different. One game you might die at level 1, another at level 50. One game you might not be able to find food. One game you might find terrific weapons. One game you might find awesome spells. Each game was different, each character was different, each death was different (I never did manage to reach the bottom of the dungeon and fight my way back up).

I ruined the game for myself at one point though. See, you could stop the game at any one moment, and it would automatically save your character. I''ve never cared for cheating in games, but after a particularly nasty death (character had found tons of good weapons and spells, but hadn''t progressed very much before running out of food), I finally figured out (hey, I was young!) that I could just copy the savegame file to another directory and thus have a backup. I think I played the game for one or two more days before realizing the game was no longer fun.

Permanent death made the game what it was.

You either believe that within your society more individuals are good than evil, and that by protecting the freedom of individuals within that society you will end up with a society that is as fair as possible, or you believe that within your society more individuals are evil than good, and that by limiting the freedom of individuals within that society you will end up with a society that is as fair as possible.
yes, rogue is the precurser to Nethack which has been discussed

I don''t think resurection will be very predominant in the design, magic exists, but it''s more mysterious than other games, and not commonplace. I want you to be attached to the character, but I also want you to be afraid of going somewhere you might die. It''s a very difficult trade-off. ALso, when you die and come back to life all the time, even if you lose items/exp/what have you, it just hurts the believability of it. I really like the lives idea, because that gives you some leeway, but you still have to be very careful. The other reason I like PD is because (if you aren''t talking PvP) it can make you more dependant on teamwork. But there are too many negative aspects of PD in a typical level-based game. This game won''t be level-based, but it still has skills which are somewhat important to the character. But I don''t really want a treadmill effect, I am SO SICK of the treadmill. We need some dynamic, fun, gameplay goals that aren''t, "run around and kill monsters until you are uber-leet!". I don''t know how to do it, but I''m starting by saying that combat won''t be the main focus of the game, and player skill will be more important than character skill.

I am hoping that with enough fun things to do in game, and without that starting tutorial period really being there after the first time you play (when your still learning the controls), that people will accept the fact that if they die, they have to start over.

Maybe I''m just a sadistic game designer who wants to unleash terror on those who play my game and see how they squirm. Too bad I wont be actually making this game
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perm-death would be a good idea, i think how i would go about it is take away all benfits for killing another person (except stealing the items on there body) if the person there fighting dies, then the murderer would have to change name and sneak around in the background, and have npc police tracking them, with the sole intention of killing the person

but to let people have a sense of victroy, you can knock out the person, and rob them blind, the police might lookout for you, and the player you knocked out want revenge but not on the scale as if you had killed them

also monsters wouldn''t kill your bodie but knock it out, and if someone doesn''t come rescue you, then you will die, i think this would increse group playing and making friends.
dont want your body under a dragon and know that your going to lose the charter because you annoyied everyone you met

if the world has magic and the person dies, maybe let the person stay in a sprit form for a certain time to try and enlist the aid of a mage/healer to revive them, which would need something fairly rare so it is not common, but more powerful you are more chance you got of paying to be healed, but with reducded power, like less lvls or skills

(oh and give newbies a week or so perm death free, to learn the game maybe give them a crystal that expires in a week that will send you to the last temple you was at before the final death blow, nothing worse then being perm killed while your trying to learn how to play the game)

if you wanted to throw in poltics and ecomy you could have trials, bribes and the like but i think from programming concept, putting in a indepth politics system would take more effort then its worth

(im still looking for a mmporpg, where i dont have to fight with a sword and mine for ore to learn how to be a mage
(which is nessacry in UO, never played everquest but i doubt its any diffrent in this area)
quote: Original post by Alleria101
(im still looking for a mmporpg, where i dont have to fight with a sword and mine for ore to learn how to be a mage
(which is nessacry in UO, never played everquest but i doubt its any diffrent in this area)


Actually in EQ Mages can''t use swords and nobody can mine. Same with Dark Age of Camelot. Not sure on Asheron''s Call.

In my opinion perma-death is too harsh a penalty for most games. That being said I will tell you of an alternative we are working on for a game our group is designing:

When a player dies they become a ghost, and by either going to the temple of their deity or another player casting a spell they can be resurected. On death a characters standing with their god is checked to determine the penalties they face from being ripped away from the spirit realm and thrown back into their body, the penalties are 20%-50% loss from their stamina attribute and 10%-20% loss on all skills. The skills recover from use, and the stamina recovers slowly over the next in-game week which can be sped up through the use of herbs, food/water, and rest/non-physical activity.

If the characters stamina drops between 10% and 20% of their normal maximum then that character is deceased, the player is sent to a screen where they are forced to enter a new first name for their character. Once the name is entered the characters face and hair are modified slightly and they lose 50% off all of their skills. Then the player can re-enter the world as their old characters heir or however the player wants to describe their change in appearance and name.

Items, money, and real-estate are transferred to the new character, provided the items and money are either in a bank or in the previous characters home/shop. Some items that were on the old characters body may be transferred automatically through the use of an heirloom system but that is limited.

We designed this system so that death could be a viable penalty for the justice/bounty systems we are setting up and it will be a nice tool for the players to enhance role-playing.

Sorry if I went a little bit off topic.
-rembrant
Not too off-topic really, all info related to death penalty in mmorpgs I think can fit in the thread.

For most games, you die so often that perma death is a completely rediculous notion. It is so hard to accomplish most non-trivial tasks, that perma death would only be an option for hard-core players only, and perma death players would probably have to play on a seperate shard from everyone else. Maybe you could choose whether you want to play with permanent death or not, and the PD player starts with much better skills than the other player? Hmm, I just thought of another idea.

You know how the magicians in most games tend to be overpowered and run around killing everyone else? What if, in order to use magical skills you have to pay for it - with your LIFE. The more magic you use, the more a chance you have of becoming mortal (hence having permanent death turned on) Don''t think this would work for my game, but it could fit well in something else. Maybe only being in danger of dying permanently for a period of time, based on how powerful of magic you use.

Although it seems silly to be immortal WITHOUT magic, and mortal WITH magic; kind of seems backwards a little. Another idea I have, is that you can be immortal for certain periods of time. Maybe you are provided with a "fountain of youth", that you can drink from, and each drink provides you with an amount of time of immortality. But at each "level", or each "month", you have a limited amount of water in the fountain. If you drink it all, you wont have anymore until the next level. In a combat oriented game, where levels only come from combat, this would mean you HAVE to fight during periods of mortality in order to win more immortality. Yet another good idea that doesn''t quite fit in my game. Having no levels, I cant quite see where the points would be that you get more water. Actually, if I made it some sort of herb that you have to grow, it could kind of work. Then again, everyone would just wait to eat/drink it until they go on an adventure. I dont know.

I am going to have to REALLY streamline character creation and have it be pretty easy to jump in again from the begining. Players can role play an heir, a relative, a friend, or a totally new character after they die. I almost don''t want the player to get to keep any of his wealth either, but that is probably too mean. The older the character is though, the more they should get to keep, and the nicer the game should be to them on the issue of death.

What about death from old age? Should characters have an age limit as well? If I get the begining-game right, and make it fun to play as a new character even when you know the world and the system, this might not be too bad of a thing. What do you guys think?

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