The game industry is way a lot more commerciallized then before, in a manner the games suffer from lower quality. You can''t find those ultra challenging games anymore, not even a slightly more challenging game. I remember games where you fought through huge armies with your little ship just to reach at the end of the game to an enemy which only his laser beam is a hundred times bigger then your ship. And you thought you have killed hime he even became more leathel shooting more shots then you have shot during the game. These games were really challenging, it took you some time to be able to finish them. What do you think about the games of today in comparssion to the games then?

They''re about the same.

And this is in the wrong forum, so I''m moving it to Game Design.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions ]

I agree with what you say about the degradation in the quality of games over time, but I don''t see the correlation between game quality and game difficulty. And even then, I don''t personally consider shooting through hordes of enemies what makes a game challenging. In fact, I think those kinds of things are what makes games stupid.

There are some pretty challenging games out there, that take a while (30+ hrs) to complete. But, back to the question of quality, the quality of games (both content and production-wise) has gone downhill and this is largely due to the economic realities of the industry.

Still, there are gems out there. In fact, I think that when you look at the realistic picture, around the same number of *good* games see the light of day each year as in the old times. The only real difference that there is also loads of crap these days. I might be wrong though since I''m still pretty young ^_^

Anyway, there are still many gems out there. Baldurs Gate, C&C: Renegade, Alien vs Predator, Unreal Tournament, Diablo 2, and the list goes on. Heh, enough to keep me happy.

I think the real problem is that the people who start to program games (in other words: us ^_^ ) do so after a long history of *playing* games. And from personal experience I know this: the more I play a certain type of game, the better I become at the whole Genre. After finishing Quake 2, Half Life was easier to me then it was to a complete newbie.

So, for me, older games were more challenging, because the entire concept of gaming was new to me. When I play many of the old games, that used to keep me occupied for weeks, these days, I can usually finish them in a day. Because I have experience.

I guess that also explains why everyone on GameDev thinks that new games lack Quality and Content ^_^

You know what? I''ll stick my head out here, and say that yes, I think that games have lost a certain creativity. I mean back in the day, about every game was a new genre. (Minus all those platformers) I''m not going to go so far as to say games today suck, they don''t. But people back in the day had more fun making games I think! =D I mean look at NBA Jam. (not exactly extremely old, but...) There were so many different secrets, and I''m sure the developers at Midway had a BLAST doing it.
And Super Mario Bros! Who else but mr. Miyamoto could have guessed to make a game about a plumber who jumps on giant mushrooms, eats mushrooms to get bigger, and kicks turtleshells around. Now we have many more ''dark'' games, but a lot of them lack creativity. (IE: Halo) (Not that there werent so many back then, but I think now there are a lot more that do.) And Qix! I mean, that''s just not a game that you''ll see again soon I think. Q-Bert. What is that guy? =D But really, now what we have is like 50 other FPSs, (some are good), and 200 RTSs. Also, I think I should note that I thinkt he coin-op arcade industry is dying with the advent of better computer games, consoles, and MMOGs

-=Lohrno

Well, having just been disappointed with another hyped game (Dungeon Siege) I''d say you could be right.

I think the problem is... marketing.

If you create a game that''s tough, your target audience might be smaller. If you really want to sell, sell, sell, you want to make sure you get as many possible buyers as you can. Make everything easy, even finishing/winning the game.

Still...

Is this a matter of quality or personal choice?

Is an ultra challenging game better than an ultra easy one? Does it get played more/longer? Does it rate higher on the ALL TIME BEST COMPUTER GAMES list? Does it survive the test of time longer?

I think anyone can make a game difficult. Take your perfect example of the ''easy'' game. Now make enemies tougher, weapons weaker etc. And voila, you have yourself the ultra challenging game.

I still think old games were a lot more challenging, they kept you on a lot more tention.
I remember I used to move my head up when I jumped with the character or anything like that. I rarely do that in todays games, maybe sometimes trying to look over the corner of a wall in a 3D game.
Todays games are pathetically (not all) easier then older games.
Older games required from you to be a lot more nimble, and they were nerve wrecking. They could practically fry your brain.
30 hours is nothing.
The 2d shooting ships games were awasum, they were a hell lot more of fun from many of todays first person shooters.
All the random, simple, yet creative chaotic patterns of the enemies made these games a lot more unpredictable enemy behaviour and required you pure dexterity to survive, instead of some simple strategies of killing the enemy like in todays first person games.
Heck, on first person shooters I sometimes use the less effective weapon so it will be omre challenging and fun.
For example, Return to wolfenstain sucks!
It was fun at the beginging, but as you advance in the game you play better, but the game doesn''t become hard enoutgh to even match your skill.
The last boss was so annoyingly easy and stuiped!
Old games demanded from you all the skills youve got.
Some games were so hard, it was an honor to finish them.
Todays games have better graphics, but they lack in gameplay.
It seems like nobody thinks of doing 2D action games today.
They just do a 3D game that has already been done, but use some new 3D cards abilities and maybe one two new features.

quote: Original post by The C modest god
For example, Return to wolfenstain sucks!

I''m sorry I have to disagree with you there. Play it multiplayer with lives, and it gets interesting quick. =D

But I don''t think its about challenge, I think it''s about creativity in general. How many games today can you pick up on the shelf and go "Huh? I would never have guessed to do a story or game like that?" Really, once you got past the first stage in Donkey Kong, the rest are easy.

-=Lohrno

There are so many things I disagree with in this thread I don''t know where to start!! I''m dizzy!!

Modest God: Games back then were manually challenging, requiring dexterity on the part of the player. Some games still challenge this way (Quake III for ex.), but in most cases the challenge is found in other areas. Maybe they are not more or less challenging now, just challenginf in different ways.

Lohrno: RTCW may not have sucked, but they could have done better for US$10 million, wouldn''t you say? I mean, it''s basically the same gameplay as Wolf3D but with better graphics. And please, don''t even give me a modern FPS that uses bosses. That''s for consoles and coin-op, for crap''s sake!!

You have to reward creativity and innovation in games, and as consumers we often don''t. There are so many reasons why the games industry is in the poor shape it''s in, and the fault lies just as much with the consumer as it does with the developer, publisher, etc. Once you see it clearly you''ll never look at games the same way again...

Wow, I didn''t know they spent that much on it. ...

But, yeah, of course it''s our fault for actually buying crappy games. But I think that the industry will eventually regulate itself, and we''ll see some good stuff. =D But at any rate we should definitely speak up about what is wrong with games now.

So that begs the question, since this is a game design thread, and I''d like to hear reasons people think. =D

What is wrong with games today?

I''ll start, and say that I think there is somewhat a lack of creativity.

What else though? Are the controls not intuitive? Are the colors all too bright or too dark? Are they just not fun?

-=Lohrno