be careful with this, multiplayer sniper games can become very frustrating very fast (especially when using a "realistic" damage model). for reference try the half life mod "Day of Defeat", it has huge (and excellent) maps with lots of sniper locations (plus the WW2 setting).
the downside is: you crawl around a corner, careful as you can but YET AGAIN there is that CLONK as the snipers bullet goes through your helmet - restart please.

Heh, I''d love to help on level design, though I can''t promise I''d be any good at it

Ben, of course you want to avoid the sitting and waiting part, but if you want to be true to sniping''s inherent nature, it is as much a psychological battle as it is a physical one. I think Enemy at the Gates illustrated this well. The way around it isn''t the use some contrived mechanism (such as a small radar or whatever) to keep people moving. People will learn to keep moving when they realize that sitting in one place after you''ve fired at someone is suicide. That''s why after a sniper shoots, he moves. He''s comprimised his hiding spot, and has to move on. That''s the way it is if you''re good...and if you''re not good, you''re dead.

Just my thoughts on the matter, of course. Just the way you''re talking about it now makes it sound like it''ll be just like any other MP game except everyone gets a sniper rifle and that''s it. Sniping is as much about hiding places, camoflage, intuition, and knowing your enemy as it is about marksmanship. Again, Enemy at the Gates illustrated this well.

R.

One thing that comes to my mind when thinking of snipers, (that i believe most people forget about) is hiding in Trees''

about the only game i know off where you could climb a tree n snipe the peons below was in AVP2,
which was entirely fun... find a cool vantage point... change to spear gun zoom in so close you can see their eyes and bang ... give a roar an run away so the marines dont kill you..

and then you started again

I think Hamdoon is right when he says that sniper vs sniper only will not get you anything more than a "camper" game. But the whole idea of using snipers will lead to campers. The Sniper is THE camper, that''s his job. To add objectives or infantery would be a good idea.I think another element is needed to keep the game running. I don''t really think forcing the players to move by using a minimap is the right way. A sniper fires, then he moves if he wanna live.

I personally love the Rainbow Six series stealth missions, where you have to sneak about and make sure no one sees you. Sure, that means sitting and camping for a while in some spots, to time the guards watch rounds and stuff, but that''s the fun of it. Try to get that feeling in the game. Use the fact that if you wanna be a good sniper you have to do so much more than just lay down and fire. It''s searching good spots, preparing them and all the time make sure you aren''t spotted. Having other troops and snipers in the hood will definitely make you careful.

I would definitely like a game where you play a sniper, but not if that means it if another frag shooter.

well...here you got my 0.02$

- Captain

I suggest that you get yourself a copy of Delta Force: Land Warior. It´s an excellent multiplayer sniping game. Terrain is based on voxels, not polygons and wobbles around when you turn or move. It doesn´t look too good but makes it much harder to notice anyone moving. With polygon terrain, like in Tribes or UT, any moving player would be too easy to spot.
Another great thing about the game is that bullets leave trails behind them so it´s easy to see where the enemy is, keeps players moving after they´ve killed someone.

[edited by - Ecthelion on April 5, 2002 4:34:55 AM]

How about abstracising a little bit more to keep the gameplay moving?

How about not having a player restart at spawn when he´s killed (because one bullet will do that), but to deactivate his weapon when he´s shot (for a few seconds, maybe just take his scope away for a while) and showing him the location of the player who shot him. The shooter gets a point and has to start moving, because his victim now knows where he is AND because the victim is still in the vicinity.

a bit like the Quasar laser games (real life)

I think half the fun of sniping is that you are sniping people who are unaware of you, and the reason people hate being killed by snipers is because they are unaware of them. Basically, it is a selfish kill. Snipers don''t generally go against snipers, because if they are good, then neither of them will die.

Putting this together, I would say that the best way to make one of these things happen would be to have the snipers trying to kill computer controlled cannon fodder. I can think of a few game types:

- Coop: Basically, you are a squad of snipers, and you have to neutralise an entire army. Important in this would be the fact that you don''t have enough ammo to kill them all. A single shot can take out an entire army - shoot the commander, and there is chaos, shoot the radio guy, and there goes communications - deliberate shots are what seperates a good sniper from an average one. Set up a scenario with an army on the move. The snipers know where they are headed to, but are unsure where they are coming from, thus naturally, they will encircle the target. Now, at close quarters, a sniper is useless, and you are pretty much guaranteed that one of the snipers will end up being in the path of the army (since they form a circle around the destination). Thus, that sniper has to be able to move, without being seen, while the others cover him and possibly find better locations. Then, mix things up a bit and have multiple groups heading towards the same spot - basically, force people to move, but allow them to be good snipers.

- Second game type would be a more competitive one, since most people prefer this type of thing because there is a definate winner. What needs to be done for this game type is to slow things down, and make sure shots are deliberate and controlled.

Scenario is some type of war time thing, perhaps the enemy base, but all the players are disguised as members of the enemy army, thus they are free to walk around with them. Each player has a set of photos; photos of each other, and photos of a couple of select targets. To score points, the players must assasinate people who they have photos of, but they must do it so no one notices, thus they must be out of sight, and their target must also be out of sight. If seen with a gun drawn, then the enemy will be likely to attack people. Thus, the game is played by walking around, trying to find targets, then tracking them, and predicting where they will go, finding a spot to snipe them from, shooting them and finally hiding their body. What I would hope would happen would be for a player to see another player without them noticing, then when that player finds an npc who is targetted, they wander off to find a spot to kill them from, once they are out of public, the other player can shoot them.

Those are two ideas, and hopefully you can see how I''ve tried to stop it from just being a deathmatch with sniper rifles, for sniping to work right, it needs to be very exact. Carelessness should always be punished in these games, so the player is constantly concentrating. Also, try and keep the players moving, if people wanted to play a game where they were a gunnery turret, then they''d buy one of them, give the player a motive to move.

There is a game like that now. It''s called Counterstrike.. damn awp campers. =]

~~ VODAK ~~
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.pewp.net/

I''ll have to admit, I never thought I''d get this much response out of such a simple game idea! Heh, maybe it is worth trying to make something out of.


Anyways, I see alot of the arguments I was expecting to see. The first being "Is it an accurate representation of what is involved in actual real sniping or is it a more arcady interpretation?". Obviously there are pros and cons to both styles of game, and possibly with some different settings to turn on and off both styles could be included in one game. Some people may prefer a very realistic sit and wait and hide style of game while others would be very turned off by that. I think that even in a more "arcady" interpretation I would still want a very slow-paced, strategic minded style of play. I also think you could have a lot of fun with it. Bonuses and power ups could allow for many different things to happen. Increased accuracy, shots fired at you slow down, any number of way cool things while still maintaining a sniper feel.

The second argument is the tougher one to deal with. People HATE to be the snipee, but love to be the sniper. There is absolutley nothing fun about being sniped after you''ve spent five minutes getting into position. I''m not sure how exactly how I would deal with that problem, but the mini-map popup was an attempt. I figure if you can occasionally see where others are, you can at least have an idea that someone is in position or moving towards a position that would compromise your current situation.


Anyways, it would be a interesting idea to stretch out and see how well it flew. If anyone out there wants it, it''s your for the taking.

--Ben