Hamdoon: that''s a really nice idea. If the critters obeyed some kind of a pecking order it could be used to the players advantage.
I like it also because it fits in with the idea of a ''big brother'' figure who is losing his grip on his kingdom.
This imbalance within the critters'' ranks could be played upon in a big way. I''ll add that idea to the design wish list!
You get a credit.
Thanks.

Another important issue with this design is scale.
I was thinking about it before whilst I was watching some no-brain soap here in England. The problem is how do you portray the world as a vast messed up metropolis whilst trying to force the player into claustrophobic situations. A problem that I haven''t yet considered properly.
Hopefully my thoughts on this design are becoming clearer to anyone that reads it.

We have now taken this idea to our own game.
Thanks for your idea, now its ours.

The concepts I always like are the big lumbering gentle hearted monster meets innocent little girl stories.

Instead of being a "android sets off to rescue little girl", how about a "robot built for destruction finds a friend, but has no recolection of what he is or what he''s for. Little girl vows to help him find out, and they both set off."

Instead of leading the girl around, the girl leads you around, and you have to protect her. Be it with big guns, or covering her body with your iron shell (such as falling rocks).

The girl could be a smart street wise little thing who finds she''s gotten herself in over her head when she finds out her new friend is really a robot built for war and destruction.

The robot doesn''t want to believe it, because he beleives himself to be kind and gentle, but yet... he can kick major ass (violently at that).

Kind of a beaty and the beast sort of situation, except instead of romance, friendship is the unbreakable bond.

The robot must protect the girl at all costs.

The tricky part would be the girl''s behavior. You''d have to make it not seem like she was on a rail, or else the game would seem very linear, so perhaps she only gives general ideas as to where they should go next, and the robot goes off and the girl follows (shouting out directions along the way).

Enter big bad evil nasty warlord type guy who wants the robot back for his evil plans, they must avoid being captured, etc... and of course there would be lots of twists and turns along the way, and many changes in gameplay dynamic. Such as the girl getting kidnapped, and the robot being on his own.

A big part of the game also could be a discovery of all the robots capabilities. As they venture along in their journey of self discover, the robot finds that he is capable of many useful and sometimes deadly things. Short distance flight, jumping, bigger guns or lasers, that sort of thing. So as the game progresses the robot can become more capable.

If at any time the girl dies, the game of course ends.

Just some thoughts, I''m at work so this might not have sounded all that clear.

I just re-read one of the other posts. The puzzle element could be very key as well. Just because the robot was built for violence doesn''t mean he has to (or wants to) use it.

Perhaps in some situations the robot loses self control and becomes "berserk".

Er... wait... I just realized this all sounds a lot like "The Iron Giant"

Heh, nm then...

Bandecko: thanks for the comments they sound intruiging.
I had also thought of the Iron Giant similarity. It''s perhaps not as bad as you think

I am still leaning towards the ''Android befriends girl, girl is cruely taken from him, Android must rescue girl'' scenario purely because it is a clearly defined goal that brings with it a sense of sadness. Don''t get me wrong, I''m not a misery guts who just wants to make people depressed It''s just that I think technology allows for a movie-like experience in games these days. It allows us to feel emotions other than "bang you''re dead".
Music of course will play a powerful role in a game like this.

By removing violence from the core gameplay and replacing it with puzzles it forces the player into thinking and hopefully having some kind of empathy with the character.
When the violence DOES come it''s almost unexpected and the player hopefully then feels the same shocked emotions as his character.

id software has a lot to answer for in the modern game world.
Without them 3D would not have been so well embraced but they also encourage technology ideals that remove good gameplay IMO.

Anonymous poster:
"We have now taken this idea to our own game.
Thanks for your idea, now its ours."

Just a note-

When the android first "wakes up", shouldn''t he feel kindness towards the guys who made him? Maybe he should feel noble and honorable, and want to love these creatures. Then he comes to realise that they are careless, heartless, whatever, and that is when he gets angry/sad.

This would also come into the gameplay, because he has been programmed not to kill them, so he has to find other ways around things.

Cool idea, I like it so far. You were wondering about the large world small places problem, if I remember right, the anime Battle Angel has the type of techno-apocalyptic world I think you''re looking for where they''re in a huge destroyed city but are always in buildings and sewers and stuff. Also, I''ve only played the shareware, but Project Eden I thought had great atmosphere and portrayed a futuristic city really well. Just from what I''ve read I''ve been imagining most of the locations being large factories and generic-large-metal-building-with-generic-large-metal-things type places, is this what you had in mind?

Personally, I wouldn''t go with the in the end Android and Big Brother meet up and acknowledge each others talent, or however it was phrased, I would do more of a thing where Big Brother may end up respecting Android and all, but if I were Android, I''d still be mad. Maybe a classic Andoid goes to kill Big Brother and then doesn''t and goes back to not liking violence now that he''s free type thing. Throughout the game, getting stronger, angrier, and maybe more insane, killing Big Brother is all he wants, until he sees Girl again and remembers how things used to be and lets Big Brother off easy. I don''t know, just a thought, good luck.

__________________________________________
We get signal.
There are bombs exploding all around us!!

quote:

---

Original post by Rixter
Personally, I wouldn''t go with the in the end Android and Big Brother meet up and acknowledge each others talent, or however it was phrased, I would do more of a thing where Big Brother may end up respecting Android and all, but if I were Android, I''d still be mad. Maybe a classic Andoid goes to kill Big Brother and then doesn''t and goes back to not liking violence now that he''s free type thing. Throughout the game, getting stronger, angrier, and maybe more insane, killing Big Brother is all he wants, until he sees Girl again and remembers how things used to be and lets Big Brother off easy. I don''t know, just a thought, good luck.

---

Maybe multiple endings?

If the game is going to be puzzle-based, I''m sure there will be some situations where there''s more than one situation to a puzzle. Like, you need to get into a building, so you stack up some boxes and climb in through a window - OR - you use the mounted machine gun round the corner, ricochet off the wall, and destroy the lock on the door.

In that case, maybe you could record the amount of ''violence'' used to solve the puzzles? So if the player has played the game violently, they kill big brother at the end; and if they''ve played with their mind, they don''t. Perhaps, even, if you want to force the player to play non-violently, you make the violent ending the ''bad'' ending. Here''s an idea - you played without your mind? Android was trying to escape from his path of violence, and you''ve kept him to it - so he goes mad.

I do like the idea of big brother. You''re right, the player''s imagination is much more powerful than any 3D modelling tool. The player just hearing him is good - just make sure that the sentence system is smooth, rather than disjointed - unless you want to make him sound like an android too (!). Maybe you shouldn''t even see him at the end, you should just locate him and destroy the building he''s in, or something. Maybe even it could be fated - you said he''s losing his grip on the city, maybe he could be killed by NPCs.

It looks like a brilliant idea so far, keep going...

Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates
- sleeps in a ham-mock at www.thebinaryrefinery.cjb.net

Rixter: thanks. I checked out some Battle Angel stuff and it''s certainly worth looking in to.
Between you and Superpig you''ve just come up with the coolest idea ever. Implementing it would be tricky but well worth it in the end.
The idea of an ending based upon the players'' actions throughout the game is inspiring.
I''d always liked the idea of context sensitive situations but couldn''t find a reasonable way of implementing them (at least into the design) without going the Deus Ex route. Which in reality wasn''t that good at all and wouldn''t suit this design.

The key to this design IMO is the inclusion of the girl.
She forces a reaction from Android that probably wouldn''t have happened otherwise.
To have that also affect the outcome of the game is interesting.

eg.
Scenario #1:
Android (player) smashes the place up throughout the entire game then finds that the Big Brother has little respect for him at all and the showdown ends in violence.
The girl is unimpressed and Android appears to regret his actions. He promptly relives his past 24 hours and puts it all right in his mind. Forcing a ''happy'' ending for the player.

Scenario #2:
Android (player) is clever about how he gets through the game using limited violence and the Big Brother shows him much respect based on this. The end is a happy one with Big Brother not resorting to violence. Instead he chooses to share some wonder knowledge with Android that makes him a much bigger character.
He and the girl live their dream and escape to utopia.

Needs work but would work a treat.
Thanks.

Note: Big Brother needn''t be depicted by a 3D character. He OWNS the world in which Android exists. He can use anything within that world to represent himself. Including buildings.

Ech.. not sure about that first ending. It feels like a bit of a cop-out; you play through the game as violently and destructively as you want, and still get the happy ending?

Are you sure it would be that hard to implement? If you add 'assessment triggers' that the player, say, walks through at the end of a puzzle; when triggered:

1)The triggers cause the game to calculate a value for 'damage done' since the last trigger, by:
* Counting the number of objects destroyed
* Counting the number of people killed
* Looking at 'violence triggers,' game triggers that can add or subtract fixed values to the total. This can be used to cover situations not covered by the previous two options; if, say, the violent solution involved climbing in through a window (rather than talking your way in) you could set up a '+10 violence' trigger that the player walks through on the windowsill...
2)Then, subtract a preset value (for those puzzles, say, where you are forced to destroy something, even on the nonviolent route).
3)Add it to a running total.
The overall idea is that each puzzle has a sort of 'par,' and if you keep under 'par' throughout the game, you get the 'nonviolent' ending.
Good and Bad endings (in my experience) are good player motivation and give added replay value (go back and get the other ending)

Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates
- sleeps in a ham-mock at www.thebinaryrefinery.cjb.net

[edited by - Superpig on April 8, 2002 2:17:17 PM]