I would think that a degree in CS would be somewhat different depending on what college you attend. For example, I have read that CMU is slightly better at buisness oriented methology than on theory. Also, I personally would go for theory, and see if there is a class or porfessor that can help you apply thoery to real world problems. I''m still in HS though, so it''s just my thoughts.

Well, when ever i read a book on something, i always try to get a book that explains theory as well as implementation. Any monkey can learn syntax, but if you know HOW to use the code, (to me at least) then you are that much better off.

I have received a few personal job offers, and noone wanted me to show a degree or something. Yes, a degree is nothing but a piece of paper! I laugh out loud, if my friend shows me his degree (he was at a german university-like school, and ''learned'' software engineering) and asks me how win32 works.

Many people (here and elsewhere) have odd ideas about computer science. Computer science is not programming. Computer science is not learning win32. Computer science is not about learning any particular api or language.

If someone gets a computer science degree expecting to learn C++ and win32 and they don''t then it''s not the fault of the degree, it''s the fault of the individual. As one of the APs said, so many so called CS majors think they got their degree so they could end up in IT. That''s bullshit.

As for faulting someone with a CS/SE degree for not knowing win32 - I would hope that someone with a CS/SE degree could pick up a language/api/whatever fairly quickly, but what possible reason is there for expecting them to know something specific like win32/opengl/whatever? Do you expect all english majors to have read the entire works of Shakespeare?

That''s right! A computer science degree is more defined as a degree for different techniques for development and not really geared towards a particular API. I am mostly using UNIX at my CS classes.. and from the course catalog, I do not see any windows geared classes except for assembly.. they are using MASM.

I hate to spoil this for the "you don''t need a degree" crowd, but here''s the truth.

Without computer science, graphics, vision, databases... there would be no computer games as they are today?

Ever heard of:

Roam
Bump Mapping
Linear Algebra
Quaternions
Octrees
Quad-trees
BSP trees,

wanna know where they came from? Not people who just want to learn a language. There are comp. sci majors that can''t program, but more programmers that can''t think. It''s important to be proficient in both.

Sure, anyone whose good can learn the newest algorithms, but who''se going to come up with the better ones? Who''s going to design the next AI systems?

Programming doesn''t get you very far if you can''t do anything with it.

I agree. If you can get a CS degree get one. You can always learn software engineering on your own, but the theories you learn in a Computer Science program would be a lot harder to learn on your own. I''m finishing up the 3rd year of my BSCS just so you don''t think I''m talking out of my ass here

There''s also a LOT of math involved, at least at the college I''m going to. It''s an engineering school mostly so maybe that''s why. But the math is good, it helps you solve problems and design algos. I''m even taking a math minor.

I pretty much realized that I won''t be learning programming here after the second semester. First two semesters I took two C++ classes. Those were the only two straight up programming classes in the entire curriculum. But I also realized that it would be pointless for them to teach you specific programming because there''re so many different languages out there and the industry changes so fast that by the time you graduated most of them would be obsolete. They teach C++ because it has been around for decades but most languages don''t last that long.

Anyway, I learned how to program on my own (did a lot of programming over the last year especially), and I''m even tutoring C++ for the second semester in a row now. But yeah, there are many people in the CS program who don''t know how to program. It sucks, but that''s how it is. Sucks for them mostly though. And also sucks for me when they come for "tutoring" when they get a programming assignment in their 300 level class (3rd year and still can''t program) and have no idea where to start.

I never said you don''t need a degree - because you definitely do need it. Not because its worth so much in and of itself, but because most employers act like you couldn''t possibly be anything but a burger flipper if you didn''t spend four grueling years and 20 G''s getting one. And I know all about that "It shows you''re dedicated, blah, blah" stuff. Plenty of degree''d people are just as lazy and disloyal as anybody else. I can go along with you guys in this altruism about "CS is about theory, not programming" stuff, but lets be clear here: nobody in the business of getting kids to come to their college is saying, "Well you''ll learn lots of theory, and then when you need to apply it you''re on your own." These kids, some of whom have no business in CS, literally think they''re going to learn to be programmers -- and nobody tells them differently. Also, the schools could have been teaching Win32, just as an example, for several years now -- and it could at least be incorporated as a 4000-level elective. Instead they act like everybody is just naturally going to want to go on to get their PhD and work at a university researching theory while propping up mediocrity by teaching. The majority of the students want to go directly into private industry doing some kind of programming. When they don''t have those skills when they leave, and they don''t want to make college a career, then what exactly DO they have? A really big bill looming over their heads and the need to do some serious learning about something -- anything -- relevant so they can find a friggin'' job before they have to go get their stupid MCSE at some boot camp.

I agree and disagree.

The problem is with students and industry though, not with universities.

What most people are looking for is to learn to be programmers, but that's not what university is for, or should be for.

There are colleges that serve to do so, but they are regarded by industry as primitive, and no one would hire frome them.

I'm a master's student, I TA lots of university students, and about 4 to 5% belong there. Most people are lazy and don't learn, so people that go to University are no different.

HOWEVER, a good university educated CS student is better than any good self taught programmer, because most good CS students ARE self taught programmers.

There are many self-taught people because programming is something that can easily be learned, and takes time and dedication to master, however I don't know of any self taught robotics people, vision people, or graphics people.

You need two things, good education, and intelect. The first is taught, the second cannot be taught. But you can't honestly expect me to believe that an able bodied, inteligent person is wasting their time getting an education. Why should a university teach something that can be easily learned from a book and a few tutorials. Also, who made Win32 god? (I like it, but that's not the issue) Why should industry dictate platform, when algorithms are platform independant. If a university student wants to learn Win32 programming, they can, if a non university student wants to master dynamic programming and AI, where they gonna go?

Also, I hate to break this to you, but a University's PRIMARY objective is not to teach, but to develop reaserch. People who don't want that shouldn't be there. The problem is people are going to the wrong place, but then that wouldn't make the degree usless, but the people.

[edited by - Ataru on April 11, 2002 12:58:52 PM]

All of this is really enlightening. It seems that my current plan of constantly programming BS stuff just to program while going to school and learning theory should work out pretty good. My goal is to be fairly proficient in c++ and Assembler when i get to the CS classes, so i can apply the theory to what i already know, instead of trying to learn theory AND syntax, then understanding why you would use it.