Hello, I have been reading a lot of contradicting aspects about the game market. Most have come from sources like Gamasutra and articles here, and others from interviews. Besides the love of making games, there has be some sort of income. To me, there seems to only two choices: (Sorry, my thoughts are kind of scattered today) Publishers-- 1) If you want to make big bucks, you have to have a publisher. 2) If you have a publisher, you will not get big bucks. 3) As you release more and more games, your percentage and control will increse To me, this sounds exactly like working for another company. Someone else has control of your profits, and periodicly you get raises for working hard, and never get a solid asset (your game) settled. Self Publishing-- 3) People say selling on your own off the internet does not make much money. What about AO and Lineage? Most of their sells come from the internet? Selling off the internet kind of resembles selling your games in plastic bags like in the old days. What is wrong with that? Where does this leave us then? I have been thinking about major success stories, like id for example. It seems to me they started off making a game on their owns terms with self publishing. After it became popular enough, after being finished, publishers met id''s demands to help each other out. So, would a good strategy be to publish your own goods until you can snag a great deal with a finished game? The last thing I would ever want is a publisher deal that forces me to make a sequel.

>Self Publishing--
>3) People say selling on your own off the internet does not >make much money.

You shouldn''t listen to what people say. Self publishing can make money. To self-publish, though, you have to not only be good at programming to make a good game, you need to also be good at marketing so that people will hear about it. Very few people are good at one thing, even fewer are good at two things.
Most people fail at self-publishing because they are not good at both programming and marketing.

But there are some people who are quite successful at self published (shareware) games. You don''t hear about them much in the gaming community, though. There are 2 reasons that I see for this:

1) Most people who are successful at shareware make games that are of general interest rather than video games or shooters. It seems that the shooter or arcade type game is the only type of game people in the gaming community are interested in.

2) The people who are successful at shareware games tend to be active in the general shareware community rather than the general gaming community. For example, I am a member of the Association of Shareware Professionals but I''ve never been to a GDC. I''m a member of the IGDA, but quite frankly haven''t seen anything in that organization that is of any use to people who self publish.

There are around 45 shareware game companies successful enough to put down $100 a year to be members of the ASP. Of these, I''d say at least 10 of them support at least 1 person full time, and at least a few (including my own company) are considerably more successful than that. And there are some other successful shareware game companies that aren''t ASP members as well.

If you have a good game, and you know something about marketing or are willing to learn about marketing, you can do far better self-publishing than using a publisher. I wouldn''t want to do it any other way. And when you get successful at self-publishing, the publishers will come to you (it happens to me all the time, it''s fun to turn most of them down).

Tom Warfield
tom@goodsol.com

I agree with Tom here.

However, Tom''s reply answers an important question: "What are publishers for?"

There''s a myth that publishers exist to make games. They don''t: their sole responsibility is to *sell* them, and that''s an important distinction. This makes them sound like a middle-man, but for many developers, they''re actually as much a part of the project as the development process itself. A game isn''t going to make you any money if you can''t sell it.

Think about it: if I uploaded a game to my website and offered it for sale as shareware, who would download it? Whom should I tell about it? Which magazines and websites should I approach?

If it''s very popular, how can I duplicate, package and post out thousands of copies of the game all on my lonesome and still have time to answer support emails, phone calls, letters and write more code? Should I book a duplication plant for this? Should I splash out thousands on a CD duplication machine? What if the game _isn''t_ successful? Won''t I have wasted all my money?

Internet distribution is useful if the people you want to sell to know how to use it effectively. And if your game has lots and lots of data, it _has_ to be on CD since many gamers still have slow modems -- or even no Internet access at all.

If I made a standard shooter, I''d probably have to put up with endless emails whining about how this or that feature isn''t as good as Quake/Halo/whatever--hardly surprising; I''m just one guy. So I wouldn''t get much money from it because everyone would be comparing a $20 shareware game with a full-price game, pruduced with a budget of millions and which they bought in a shop and paid $40 for. Get this straight: $40 is CHEAP! Games cost a shitload to make and sell very few copies compared to movies and TV programmes. (A bad TV programme audience in the UK is 5 *million* viewers. Damned few ''hit'' games sell even a tenth of that many copies. And you wonder why publishers are paranoid about piracy...

If I made a solitaire game, why would posting an announcement about it in GameDev be useful? Very few people here care about card games: 99.999% of the posts in the forum are about typical teenage wannabe game concepts like FPSs, space shooters and the like.

This is the kind of thing publishers have to do on a massive scale. If you don''t like marketing or have no talent for it, a publisher really does make sense. A good publisher will get your game seen and heard--a process called ''increasing mindshare''--so that, when you next see the game sitting on a shelf, you''ll be that little bit more likely to buy it.

If you want to make money out of this, the secret is to avoid the big-budget mindset most devcos have and go for a low-budget project. Instead of expensive gloss and pointless glitz, go for gameplay and fun. If your costs are low, your margins are bigger so even a small game can make a comfortable profit.

And profit = money. Money = freedom to make more games.

Hey, it works for Chris "Rollercoaster Tycoon" Sawyer. And not just the once, either.

--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

@goodsol:
You mentioned how you are turning down publishers, because you or your company is good enough at publishing to make profit out it. Dont you want to write an article, or just give some short example how you or company sel-publish your products? I mean do you use the Internet, do you contact magazines, are your prducts found only at your or your company''s website, or do you send CD out to your costumers or can your products be found in a shelf of some sort of store?
Just some basic questions, as you can see. You dont have to tell me or the rest of the community about your entire marketing strategy...
An article would be cool, but a plain answer to my questions will do it as well
Hey and im just proposing this, i do not force you (just wanted to point that out...)

PredeX

my master plan is to program my game for the amiga.

why? why? why?

the answer is that a popular amiga game sells a year or so ago for about 1000-3000 copies. almost all amiga purchases happen basically across the internet. the comunity is small enough to service with one or two CDR''s.

Amiga is the first machine I''ll do a game on i think, and then I''ll port to other small use machines. thats the theory anyway.

regards
steven dobbs

There is a third option slowly becoming more and more profitable. This is sponsorship or brand name games.

Have you looked in your cereal box lately, or been to a tradeshow. Lots of companies are starting to use small games as promotional tools.

Currently I have created small games for Levis, John Deere, and lots of other companies. Some other examples include racing games for Toyota and Honda, even Lego is giving away puzzle games.

Generally you will get paid once per project. Remember to retain the rights to your engine so you can sell it again.

Later,

rsnail

You know, I am surprised that more games haven''t used advertising within them. Some sports games use ads just like real sports played in big venues do, but anyone remember "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Arcade Game" for the NES? They had ads for Pizza Hut all over that game!
You would think ads for Coke and such would be good for turning a profit, even if it turns out that the game itself isn''t a million seller.
Of course, if anyone has experience trying to get such advertising, how about telling us why it won''t work?

-------------------------
(Gorgeous graphics)+(beautiful sound effects)+(symphonic music)+(no gameplay) != Good game

Sean is correct, publishers are marketers. If you have a publisher, the publisher does the marketing for you. If you don''t have a publisher, then you have to do the marketing yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to do that marketing, you''d better not self-publish. There is no easy way to success.

>Dont you want to write an article, or just give some short >example how you or company sel-publish your products?

I do write articles, but so far all have appeared in ASPects, the monthly magazine of the Association of Shareware Professionals, you have to be a member to get it.

>I mean do you use the Internet, do you contact magazines, are >your prducts found only at your or your company''s website, or >do you send CD out to your costumers or can your products be >found in a shelf of some sort of store?

Yes.

Typically, you start out doing all these things yourself. As you start money, you hire others to do various things for you. The primary and most profitable means of getting customers today is visitors to your web site, or downloads from download sites.

I''ve got a person where the only thing she does is go to various download sites, starting with download.com on down the list, and makes sure that everything is listed and up to date on each site. Press releases can get your products mentioned in magazines and newspapers. I''ve had my products mentioned in national newspaper columns, magazines like PC Magazine, and even had my picture in a supplement of Time magazine last year. These things happen only if you go out and make them happen.

We currently send out CDs ourselves, but there are companies that will do this for you. There are people that will do any or all of these marketing tasks for you, if you pay them.

Although most money in shareware comes from internet distribution, if you are successful a publisher will come to you and do a retail version of your game. I''ve done 9 retail products so far (with more contracted for the future), and I didn''t approach the publisher for any of them. Even though a couple of them have been very good sellers, they don''t make nearly as much money as shareware does, because even though they sell more copies (generally), you get only a very small percentage of the retail purchase price (royalties are usually a percentage of the price the publisher gets, which is usually much less than the actual retail price the customer pays). With shareware you get all or most of the purchase price, so even if you sell 10 times fewer copies you will often wind up with more money.

And, of course, if you self-publish you have control over your own business. You are not at the mercy of how good your publisher''s distribution is (boy, am I glad I''m not at the mercy of that!) When you self-publish, everything''s up to you. If you fail, you''ll have no one else to blame. A lot of people just don''t like being in that kind of situation.

Tom Warfield
tom@goodsol.com

I am glad to hear there is hope.
I guess there is a relationship between selfpublishing and getting a publisher. For the most part, here and in other articles, if you get a publisher you make less per copy, but sell more copies, while if you self-publish you sell more copies for less.

It sounds like you are going in the same track like id did. They started with shareware that got popular, and then went retail with more control than they would have had if they
started with retail.

quote: Original post by GBGames
You know, I am surprised that more games haven''t used advertising within them. Some sports games use ads just like real sports played in big venues do, but anyone remember "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Arcade Game" for the NES? They had ads for Pizza Hut all over that game!
You would think ads for Coke and such would be good for turning a profit, even if it turns out that the game itself isn''t a million seller.
Of course, if anyone has experience trying to get such advertising, how about telling us why it won''t work?

I am no expert but I believe there isn''t a large enough audience for games. Most avergae games have about 10 000 players and only some of the top high budget ones reach over 100 000. On the other hand, TV shows or other such means have a much bigger audience and that makes advertising worth it. Advertising income is based on how many people you can reach. A game''s audience is too small that any advertising revenue would be pointless compared to the sales income. I am not talking about general games that are for everyone such as the types of things at uproar.com since they clearly do well through advertising. Its the shooters, strategies, RPGs and such games that have a relatively small target audience and can''t really rely on advertising. Sales profit makes any advertising revenue seem insignificant.