Being an avid Delta Force player, I''d want to give my 0.02 NOK in that
I simply love sniping... And I have no problem with
snipers when it comes to CQC (Close Quarters Combat) fighting,
being taken out by a sniper is only interesting... Because
then I just need to hunt him down and kill him



Llyod
Independent Forum for Adventure Devr''s and Gamers!
The best you can is good enough

I think the reason most people love sniping is because its so easy. How delightful to be able to stay out of harm''s reach while picking people off. Trouble is, to be a REAL sniper takes considerable skill and talent. It''s not just anyone who can be a sniper. You''ve really got to have nerves of steel. The ability to just point your crosshairs and automatically hit is just TOO easy. In real life, you have to take ballistics into account. Hmmm, 500m away? I better notch up my scope to elevate it to take bullet trajectory into consideration. Wow, battle sure is scary...gotta concentrate to keep my hands steady. What if someone is sneaking up on me?

And yet despite all these things....aim, click, dead. Sorry, that''s just WAY to unrealistic for me. Being a sniper should be an elite task just like it is in real life. Throughout the ages, snipers have always been elite forces. The way games implement snipers make them too seductive and too easy. I''m not too keen on always sticking with the concept of balanced units, however, I AM very vocal about realism. And the way snipers are implemented are just too unrealistic for the powers that they have.

One day hopefully, we''ll start seeing games the like of Ghost Recon or Flashpoint but on a large scale battlefield. Where the usage of a sniper would be more realistic, not to mention things like forward observers or specialized units like AT or AA troops.

Delta Force 2 made a step in that direction. So far it''s still the only FPS to take drop and windage into account. It''s doubtful it will find it''s way into the majority of FPS''s. Still, it has a lousey damage model. Any hit with a sniper rifle is a kill.

I''ve never played OpFlash so I don''t know how it handles things, but I can tell you that GR does NOT take drop or windage into account. The ballistics model is also questionable in GR. not to mention, the maps are still too small to do real sniping.

There is the Infiltration mod for Unreal Tournament. It takes quite a few strides in this direction. As of yet it doesn''t calculate drop and there''s no wind. However, the crosshairs waver and they don''t really stop until you go prone and stay that way for a while. You also need to hit your target in the head or central torso for a one shot kill. I would also like to add that there are no crosshairs period in this game. You aim with the iron sights. That''s another thing I think needs to find it''s way into FPS''s, but enough about that.

I wanna'' ride on the pope mobile.

CounterStrike is a good game if you aren''t absolutely SNIPER ONLY, it doesn''t give the sniper hugely overpowerful ability.

DoD implements sniping wonderfully, it does the rest of the game wrong. Its a sniper game and people are rushing around like its an infantry game. The whole design behind DoD is crap, in my opinion. If they would just make everyone who dies, STAY dead like in CS, I think it would improve things GREATLY

How is DoD a sniper game and not an infantry game? You think Caen was freed from the Nazis by a team of snipers? Learn your history man. They''re trying to make the game at least somewhat historically accurate.

One thing to consider is how much the game will change in the upcoming beta 2.0 release.

I just read an interesting article in Men''s Fitness on one of the US Biatholon team members. These guys have to ski cross country as fast as they can and then stop and shoot at some targets. What was interesting was that these elite level athletes had to learn to control their heartbeats from nearly 170-200 beats per minute....down to...get this....about 10-20. Not to mention that they had to control their breathing from sucking down wind from the skiing. And they had to be able to do this as quickly as possible. Doing all of this obviously increased their chances of hitting the targets as the rifle would no longer jitter as much (even from a prone position there will be jitter). And they only had to hit targets from 50m away (admittedly, I don''t know how small the target is).

For the power that snipers get in games, they are just too unrealistic....even in the thinking man''s shooters. Oh btw, did anyone play the sniper level in MOH:AA? Sheesh talk about insanity, the Omaha Beach mission was a cake walk compared to that one. I actually made it to the shingles in about 15 tries on the Omaha Beach mission. It took me close to 50 tries to make it through the sniper level.

quote: Original post by Dauntless


For the power that snipers get in games, they are just too unrealistic....even in the thinking man''s shooters. Oh

I''ve seen several people make this claim, but no one''s really supported it yet. Projectile weapons are DEADLY. Just ask General Custer. And since most FPS don''t model incapacitating wounds, and just kill you off (same from a gameplay perspective, basically) I think one/two shots per kill is pretty realistic.

Has anyone ever watched something like full metal jacket? The sniper scenes in movies like that are pretty realistic depections, from what I understand.

And yes, sniping in games isn''t as difficult as sniping in real life. But that''s true of most anything in games. Do you think firing a pistol in a straight line while under fire is as easy as depicted in an FPS? How about driving a car vs. driving in a racing game? Some things have to be made easier to be FUN.

And that''s the real question here: Is sniping/being sniped fun? I happen to think it is. But it''s entirely a matter of personal preference. Saying that sniping ruins games is unfair. It ruins games for YOU. Just go play a game where sniping isn''t a factor, and leave those of us that enjoy it alone, would you?

Like many other discussions of this ilk ("is magic too powerful in UO?"), it comes down to a question of game balance. If people begin to realize that the risk/reward ratio is skewed very heavily in favor of one type of unit, one type of weapon, or one tactical approach, EVERYONE will begin to gravitate toward that out of balance method. If sniping has too many benefits compared to the rest of the game, it is out of balance.

Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

As an aside, I played DoD last night and noticed that the administrator limited the number of snipers to two per side (is this possible? It seemed like it anyways). It definitely improved things on some maps, but highlighted some other obvious problems with these kinds of games. There is not enough team work!! Snipers often don''t end up sniping where they are most useful. They just wait in one place where they won''t have to move around much, but isn''t necessarily the most useful thing for the rest of the team. So, while our snipers are hiding somewhere taking a pot-shot now and then, the grunts are getting slaughtered because we have no covering fire.

Oh well. Not to generalize, because I''m sure a lot of you are excellent snipers. But sniping well is about more than just being able to shoot. You have to be able to think as well.

R.

For all of you who say that snipers play no real part on the battle field I suggest you research the battle of Stalingrad. It is well known that hordes of Russian snipers were instrumental in keeping the German''s from taking the city.

It was common knowledge among veteran soldiers along the german lines that one had to keep one''s head down all times. To even expose a glimpse of one''s head meant death. I''ve read several accounts that said 3-4 out of 5 new german recruits on the front lines were sniped the first time they peaked over the german lines toward the Russians. Curiosity got them killed.

During the seige of Stalingrad the Russians trained hundreds of snipers at the Red October Factory and sent them to hide within rubble and perch atop buildings, awaiting clear shots on unsuspecting Germans. You can be sure that being trained on the battlefield wouldn''t breed the best snipers. I''m sure they were just good enough to get the kills. They would sometimes travel in groups. From what I''ve read, sometimes up to as many as seven snipers to a group. They often tried to eliminate ALL targets that had spotted them. They would frequently pass up targets if the potential for discovery was too great. Many a careless Russian sniper got the front end of an artillery round in their sniper nest.

In paintball we call the type of play where one just runs out into the field shooting wildly "spray and pray" and it usually gets a person tagged immediately. It is idiotic in real life to actively engage someone at 10 yards with a machine gun, why wouldn''t it be idiotic to do the same in a game. Sniping takes the game away from the meat monkeys who have lightning fast reflexes and do that stupid "jump-crouch-jump-crouch" thing to avoid being hit. Some of us like to use our brains, but also like to play FPS.

Personally I rarely play a sniper in FPS. I rather, prefer to play "sniper killer". My favorite activity is to panzerfaust (rocket launcher) a sniper in the back from 20 feet away in Wolfenstein. I can tell you that after you do that to the same sniper about three times in a row he''ll leave your game. I don''t mind snipers if they play as a team. I think they add an element of danger to the game as well that isn''t there otherwise. Every turn is an adrenaline rush when there could be a sniper around it.

Play smart. If you run out into the open you deserve to get sniped.

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