This is a complex proposal to convey so let me define some terms: I am only referring to first person games with a bent toward online games. Rightly or wrongly this is how the terms are used in my post. The “Player” is the person on the keyboard who influences the character. The “Character” is the model and associated tables that the player attempts to control. The “Avatar” is the players perception of the character, background story, attitude behaviour etc. Lets split the “player” in two : The logical rational thinking side who knows that [F1] is attack and that they have to stop playing soon because dinner is nearly ready. The unconscious reactionary feeling side who is a bit scared in the dark forest all alone especially at night. The voice in your head if you like. Now lets split the “character” in two. The rational character which knows that [F1} is the players intention to attack and that there is the option to flee in panic indeed the rational character also knows all the stats, skills and abilities of the character in order to do things like battle calculations. The unconscious character that communicates feelings and emotions to the “player” and automatically reacts to some situations, doesn’t walk off cliffs glances back when something is heard behind, Greets NPC’s and other players etc. And split the Avatar in two. The Rational avatar which the “player” controls : ultimate goals , where and what to do. The unconscious avatar which is computer controlled based on past events and determines how the character will react to situations. So we need to store Stats for both the Rational and the Unconscious sides of the character. Rational stats like Strength, Agility, Dexterity etc to determine character abilities running, jumping, fighting. Unconscious stats are things like Confidence, Fear, Courage, Happiness, Grief, Desire, Pain, Empathy. used as feed back to the player. Why would anyone implement a model like this ? Imagine a character with feelings emotions and attitude, a character which knew not to mindlessly run into a wall, fall off a cliff or step on a snake. A character which runs in fear or begs for mercy, gets involved in a bar room brawl because it’s in a bad mood. Imagine a character incapable of killing another player because the malice isn’t high enough. A character that constantly flirts with the opposite sex, A character that beats the pickpocket severely because its a highly tuned character with sensory skills built up by the player over many months and it hates criminals. In summary the “Player” merely guides the “character” through life based on their conceptual Rational “Avatar”. The unconscious Avatar relays feelings based on information stored in the unconscious “character” back to the players unconscious mind greatly reinforcing immersion. This might sound complicated but it’s really very simple Nomax5 Armchair designer

before i digest this too much, i have to ask: do you mean to take some control of the player away, so that he is "suggesting" to the character, rather than "controlling" him/her? <br><br>— krez (<A HREF="mailto:krezisback@aol.com">krezisback@aol.com</A>)

Ohh yes !

Unconscious stats like courage, fear, would need building up just like rational stats.

say for instance a player tried to get their character to commit suicide by walking off a cliff , then unless the character was very depressed through grief or something it wouldn’t happen, the character would be to frightened to walk off the edge. This fear would be communicated back to the player. A creaky old footbridge over a deep ravine would have a similar effect.

that''s interesting... it would force the player to stay "in character" at all times... this could be nifty, but it might get annoying too (why the hell won''t he just get over it and cross that damn bridge! dammit, i''m just going to go play starcraft now!)
you''d have to be careful how you implemented it.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Hmm... somewhat like the psychological modeling they attempted to do in Close Combat... where you could give orders to your teams... but based on a number of criteria, the soldiers may not comply (if you ask them to run across an open field under enemy fire) or even freak out and run the other direction. In the case of CC, they boosted morale when soldiers were around officers, tanks, etc. Things that would give them a safer feeling.

Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development

Seven months ago I created a thread in this forum called You are your character''s consciousness.

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Nomax5,

This is one way to tackle the "getting people to roleplay" objective: forcing them, whether they like it or not. Another, and I personally prefer this one, is to have a "happy meter" which indicates how the PC feels about where they are and what they''re doing. Keeping the PC happy has concrete rewards in game: the PC learns faster, works harder, fights fiercer etcetera. But it would still be possible to make the PC do things he doesn''t want to, so it becomes a matter of choice and not a matter of force. Sometimes people just have to do what they have to do, regardless of how they feel about it; and the player represents the part of the character that makes that kind of decision. I do like the idea of training up one''s courage and willpower... I remember reading one story of a person training to become a vigilante, who not only tried to become stronger and faster but also attempted to overcome his revulsion toward filth so that he wouldn''t hesitate to take the smartest choice because it involved gross stuff.

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-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

quote: Original post by Nomax5
In summary the “Player” merely guides the “character” through life based on their conceptual Rational “Avatar”. The unconscious Avatar relays feelings based on information stored in the unconscious “character” back to the players unconscious mind greatly reinforcing immersion.

This might sound complicated but it’s really very simple

In principle, it''s a good idea. In practice, it seems like it would be very tough to make a fun game where the character you''re controlling doesn''t follow orders. I see far more opportunities for frustration than role-playing. IMO you never want to "force" the player to do anything. That way lies linear gaming, and then you might as well go read a book.

One way this could indeed be fun is if you were an angel or a demon running around the game world possessing people and fixing up or screwing up their lives. If you tried to make them do something too contrary to their inherent beliefs, they''d shake off your possession and cast you out. So you''d have to start slow, turn them on to petty theft, then have them drink a little too much, then visit a prostitute while they''re drunk, and the next thing you know, they''re on a rooftop with a rifle, score. It''d be kind of like _The Sims_ meets _The Exorcist_. I''d play this game. I''d probably get seriously hooked on this game.

OTOH if you were an angel, you could reform some drug dealer or worse into a missionary by slowly changing his behavior patterns. It''s all up to you.

But oh what a headache actually designing this game and making a natural, intuitive interface would be.

Great ideas. It''s a nice evolution of the character. Now, one question. Where''s the game?

And while the character''s interesting, you''ll never convince me that that character is me. It might be MY character, but it isn''t going to be me. If it was me, it''d be my difficulties, my anticipation of the situation, not my charcter''s.

Now, about making a game that uses this. You''ve got a great idea, so make a game around that. Give a person an avatar, or set of avatars, and have to grow them and negociate them across various tasks.

Send the happy conversational person into the bar to get information. Send the courageous person into the haunted woods. etc. I''m sure there are plenty of possible control schemes, and levels of directness.

Does anyone else think this is reminiscant of The Sims?

God I was reading this I can''t believe the concept.Is this even possible?It would be smooth to have a system like that but like another person already said you the player should have the ability to make the character simply suck it up and do what it has to do.It might not do it as well though.You know like like you might have the character having to battle a band of 5 thugs for example.The chacter has to get through these guys to get to the next board but it''s too scared so you force it to do it.But it might not block as well or fight as well as it would if it was willing to do it.Man if you ever get this done I would love to see it.