I appreciate your recanting, Gaiiden, but that doesn''t take away from the fact that consulting with the experts (as was done by Barbara in the IGDA forums) was something you should have done before posting your views and (despite your claim that it wasn''t your intention) passing them off as coming from authority or experience.

I also noticed that in your ''You Got Game'' articles, where you describe the breakdown of the typical game team, you put ''game designer'' in the ''management'' section and don''t even mention that a game project also needs level designers (who could also be senior people -- I know a couple) and other misc. design people. So, it seems your article is flawed and, in light of what you have discovered from what people here and in the IGDA forums have said, needs a rewrite.

I''m glad that although I had to be a jerk to do it, I at least contested what you had said. Hopefully a few people learned something from this exchange, not the least of which is ''verify your sources!''. Don''t assume anyone knows what they are talking about. This is a standard practice in any kind of research and in my opinion should be used when looking into any kind of job, especially in this industry.

Cheers,

R.

quote: Original post by Warden
Also, only the best of designers that have proven themselves will be able to have complete creative control over a project. People like Richard Garriot, Will Wright, Sid, etc.

All of whom started out as programmer/designers. (Working on their project alone too, I believe.) This supports my point of "if you really want to get somewhere, you actually have to Make something of your idea, not just talk about the idea".

The fact that the Greats started out as programmer/designers has more to do with the way the industry evolved than it does with the requirements of being a good designer. Back then, there were no dedicated designers. Who knows what the next generation of ''Greats'' will be like? The games industry is young and still evolving, and tools (like engines, AI, 3D animation packages, etc.) are having to go the way of the ''prosumer'' (as is the trend with most software that has a mass appeal), meaning that in the next 5 years you may see it being completely possible for a non-programmer to manipulate a WYSIWYG game engine, using art and sound that he or she purchased from TurboSquid or some such service, and implenting gameplay which he or she developed simply from playing a lot of games. I''m not saying it would be AAA quality...but I see it happening.

The same thing happened with video editing. It used to be the province of the expert videographer with the extraordinarily expensive equipment and in-depth technical know-how. Well, now everyone wants to make their own wedding videos so they just plug their DV cam into their iMac and away they go.

R.

quote: Original post by Tacit
The fact that the Greats started out as programmer/designers has more to do with the way the industry evolved than it does with the requirements of being a good designer.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally disagree. I think that programmers have a lot of the key traits that you need to be a good designer. (And the inverse is true as well.) These include attention to detail, a desire to see the abstract become concrete, envisioning complete systems, classifying concepts, etc.

quote: Back then, there were no dedicated designers.

There are still hardly any now I doubt that will change much.

quote: ...in the next 5 years you may see it being completely possible for a non-programmer to manipulate a WYSIWYG game engine, using art and sound that he or she purchased from TurboSquid or some such service, and implenting gameplay which he or she developed simply from playing a lot of games.

I''m sure that this situation will come to pass, but I''m also quietly confident that the result will be little more than the current ''problem'' with FPS/RTS saturation, with a trillion and one similar-yet-different games.

I still reckon some of these wannabe game-designers should pick up one of these kits and play with it. All the time they spend whining that nobody wants to program their game could be spent learning a simple scripting language to bring their ideas to life.

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