The "I can''t program or draw so I want to be a designer" school of thought makes me laugh.

The main reason Game Design appeals to me is because programming, drawing, and writing are all things I enjoy doing. And I would rather be doing a job in which I get to use all three than a job in which I do just one all of the time.

It seems to me that even well known ''Designers'', even those whose name alone is often enough to sell a game (Peter Molyneux for example) have to get their hands dirty with a bit of programming or artwork here and there. And that is in addition to a lot of promotional work, dealing with publishers etc...

Here''s a thought. The career path that seems to be the consensus here implies that in order to be a game designer, one must excel at (or at least survive) being a programmer. Now, we have already discussed the fact that not all programmers posess the ability to be game designers. Can we extend this to ask the question "are good game designers cut from the same cloth as good programmers?"

Perhaps, if we were to weave this discussion with the nearby discussion of "what do you hate about RPGs?" etc., we would begin to see that some of the things we DISLIKE about games is due to a more mechanical approach rather than a creative approach. Is it possible this comes from the fact that a programmer who has worked his way up through the ranks and cut his teeth on countless other projects (possibly suffering from the same lack of vision) may very well have his creativity pared down to "that''s the way we have always done it?"

Also, I would refer you to "The Peter Principle" which is a nifty little theory that claims that people are generally only reasonably competent at their current job. This is due to the fact that, if a person excels at their position, they stand out and get promoted regardless of whether or not they are truly qualified for the higher position. This pattern continues until they reach a level at which they no longer excel... which is where they cease to get promoted. This is only loosely connected to the point I am trying to make... the common thread being "just because you are a slick programmer doesn''t mean you have the overall vision to be a designer." And no one will know until you have chugged out a few mediocre, cliche games.

I mean no insult on anyone here who may hold a job like this... however, we ALL admit that there are a lot of cookie-cutter games out there that just seem to be repaints of exisiting concepts. Is this from internal industry stagnation? Just something to ponder.

Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development

I´m a game designer and I´m not an excellent coder, I wouldn´t even say I´m an average coder. And most game designers I know (who come from a programming background) haven´t been doing enough programming work to be up to date.
Others come from QA, storywriting or level design so I don´t think that that is a reason for the "mechanical approach" to games Fox criticised...

the general thoughts of this thread are head-on, of course there are game designers but only very few start with game desing. Most game designers know some art AND programming, I know only very few who can do neither.
And in general I think it´s better for this thread to take on a more pessimistic approach, as the recent flood of "game designers" has shown that more information and a realistic approach are definitely in order.

Gaiiden: actually it does come down to one person, because only one person alone is efficient enough to carry the deceision making process. Of course every design is a collaboration of many people, but there has to be someone to make a call if necessary, otherwise it will never get done and eventually die of featuritis.

@AP (spidey):
I agree on most points, to clarify my "there´s no such thing as an all-out game designer": I meant that there are no full-time positions where you get paid for just sitting there having good ideas. There´s always a lot fo work involved, and you have to be good at that. 90% hard work, 10% ideas.

btw: doesn´t directing and being the designer cause problems? I´m usually somwhat doubtful of Director/Designer or Project Manager/Game Designer/Artist/Whatever combinations, from my experience so far these combination jobs are usually under severe time problems, either the design doesn´t get done or worse, the managing doesn´t get done...

Hase...

You know how it is...each company has different titles for the same jobs. Hell, at Sony, we have 3 branches (Santa Monica, San Diego, Foster City) and between the 3 we have different titles!

By director I do not mean managment work...I have an AMAZING producer who deals with schedules, HR, morale issues, money,etc...that''s her ballgame and she''s great at it. I''ve tried to do both before and it is- for me- 100% IMPOSSIBLE!

We use the term director like the movie business does...and you can have a lead designer and director be 2 different people...the idea behind the director is someone who is watching out for the overall product on a high level...what''s the hook? The feel? The goal? The pacing? The whole enchillada so to speak...whereas we look at game design as a real job/skill/craft unto itself (pure mechanics; interface; layout; scripting)...I have people at the office who are GREAT at game design who really suck at directing (i.e. thinking about how to connect with the audience; being commercial;etc).

And for the record, I can''t code and can''t draw. Alot of the posts here seem to assume that design is sort of something that needs to be done but coders and artists can do alot of it. Man, I gotta tell you, that''s not been my experience at all. Don''t get me wrong...everyone has great ideas that MUST be listened to and- when applicable- implemented. But Design is HARD (for me anyway). And it''s NOT just the tuning, tweaking, deciding which features go and stay (all of these areas are where the game lives or dies, however). It''s the overall concepts that are also important. This whole idea of ideas being a dime a dozen is reflective of a development environment filled mainly with coders who say ''let''s make an FPS...those are fun!'' and just start coding some great engine and tossing stuff in and trying to make it work (which sometimes it does). But those are not the kind of games we want to make...we want immersive, unique, commercial, FRESH titles (Metal Gear Solid; GTA3; Tony Hawk; Zelda)...and those kinda of games do not come from ONLY tinkering (Tony Hawk might have however), they come from struggling to create a vision of what NEW IDEA you want your game to have... the fact that this idea of ''you don''t really need to worry about the overall concepts...everyone has those...those are easy to come by'' MAY be the reason so many games are derivative these days...cause no one puts the time in....It''s sorta like a publishing house going ''ah, anyone can write a good story...let''s just rip off the latest Stephen King novel...it''s the WAY THE BOOK IS BOUND that people care about!''


spidey

I think the point about game designers not existing as the 'rockstar' type image is a valid point, but saying that the position of designer is a phantom one and then spouting all kinds of uninformed, pessimistic drivel is counter-productive and just plain wrong. Maybe the thread should be titled 'Game Designer - The Chameleon of Game Development'.

I am not an experienced game developer, but I believe in my ability to get into the industry. I have no coding skills, very little artistic talent, and my only chance for an 'in' is to exploit the skills and experience I do have, which is in writing. So, over the past few years I've gained valuable experience working in game industry-related fields (3D hardware and software companies) and made good contacts with game developers along the way. I have no illusions about the industry -- I know it's difficult to get into, and many people are overly optimistic about getting in, just as many would-be novelists never make it through the years of heartbreak as manuscript after manuscript and their hearts are broken. But...the important thing is to not lose your passion, don't succumb to cynicism, and ignore the naysayers who are more interested in driving the hope out of you than they are in making games.

Inform yourself of what you need to do...study the industry, learn how it works. It is not like most other high tech businesses, but some kind of strange amalgam of book publishing and software development. Educate yourself and build up your skills, and above all, maintain a positive attitude. If you're interested in game design, study games. See how they are made. Play play play, and analyze what made a game successful. See how you can improve on the design to make the game more enjoyable. Learn from the masters, but don't be bound to them or their ideas. Understand the theory, and put it into practice. Read, read, read. Expand your horizons. The future of this industry lies in the hearts and minds of the up and coming, not the already there (they too still have their part to play, but they've already made it!).

Spidey, thanks for your positive and meaningful comments. It's good to see some people still remember what it was like to be starting up. I have some ideas you may find interesting -- email me at r_van_lierop@yahoo.com if you're keen.

R.

Edited by - Tacit on January 7, 2002 1:42:48 PM

Spidey,

That was what I have been trying to say! I love you man!

Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development

I really do not know what is so cynical about saying that you generally need industry experience to get a job as a game designer. Personally I think it would be a lot worse if the situation was the opposite, that people who had been paying their dues and busting their asses in the industry would be passed over during recruitment for design positions in favour of outsiders with nothing but a bunch of more or less workable ideas and no proven track record.

Henry

Current modes of production are not favourable for aspiring ''game designers''.

The immaturity of the industry currently relegates ''game designers'' to the box marked "Wrong place, wrong time".

It will probably take many more years before it ceases to be a Phantom Job.

quote: Original post by HenryApe
I really do not know what is so cynical about saying that you generally need industry experience to get a job as a game designer. Personally I think it would be a lot worse if the situation was the opposite, that people who had been paying their dues and busting their asses in the industry would be passed over during recruitment for design positions in favour of outsiders with nothing but a bunch of more or less workable ideas and no proven track record.
Henry

However, the reverse is also true. It would be a shame (as it currently seems to be) that many good minds would get passed up because they didn''t have a specific skill set (e.g. coding) that may or may not be entirely relevant to them being a good designer. Bottom line is that the best person with the best ideas should get the job. Everything else is artificial.



Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development

@spidey:

The title thing is really horrible... with "graphic artist" and "QA manager" you pretty much know what you´ve got, but other than that there´s utter confusion.
Here we´ve never worked with designated "Directors", it´s either the Project Manger or the Game Designer who does that job. I find it more manageable to keep the two seperate, because if I do the design I can talk to the artists and coders without the tension which automatically arises when the project manager does design related stuff.
The biggest we go in Design "Teams" is two, as we´ve seen that any more than that takes up a huge amount of time coordinating and discussing, while very little gets done. Only after the initial design work is done the doc is opened up to the "general public" to criticise and improve.

I couldn´t imagine doing game desing without the drawing skills I have, have you tried picking it up? It doesn´t take too much time to get to a level where you can produce decent-looking scribbles..



@Tacit: I´d rather call it realism. It´s a lot easier to get into the design area if you have other skills, and once you are there these skills become even more important (at least it seems that way to me). Besides, having to do different stuff helps you keep a broad view on things and gives you experience with things you otherwise wouldn´t have seen.
If you´re serious about design I´d pick up some basic drawing skills (it´s really not that hard), you don´t have to be an "artist", but just doing screen layouts which look good is an enormous asset.

@Castillo: I wouldn´t say that it´s a phantom job, the trend to place more emphasis on good game design has already started and if you´ll look around you´ll see that you´ll have severe problems talking to potential publishers if you can´t even give them a solid GD.

@Fox: It´s not about the "best ideas", at least most of the time. Being creative is a requirement, that´s true, but on that alone you will get nowhere. What it comes down to is that the person with the best design and writing skills will get the job.
The idea guy isn´t worth anything, no matter how many good ideas he produces a day. If he can´t put them on paper, work with them and tailor them to fit a certain audience he costs more that he´s worth (At least I´ve never seen anyone I´d pay a full-time job just for his ideas).