Qoute from IGDA release "Presented by the International Game Developers Association (IGDA), the Game Developers Choice Awards recognize excellence and outstanding achievements in developing innovative interactive entertainment. Awards are given in the following categories: Lifetime Achievement Award IGDA Award for Community Contribution The First Penguin Award Excellence in Audio Excellence in Game Design Excellence in Level Design Excellence in Programming Excellence in Visual Arts Game of the Year Game Innovation Spotlights Original Game Character of the Year Rookie Studio Award" Nothing there for original storyline etc... And yet that is frequently a complaint about games. If they don''t encourage good writing, odds are they won''t get good writing. BTW "First Penguin Award??"

I agree, and it just shows how little regard there is for game writers.

*********-.o-**********

quote: Original post by Crydee
Nothing there for original storyline etc... And yet that is frequently a complaint about games.

Is it? The only people I''ve ever heard complaining about the writing in games are writers themselves



[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost ]

Yet many people complain that the content in games is not compelling or meaningful. Don''t you think these two things are related? I sure do.

quote: Original post by Kylotan

Original post by Crydee
Nothing there for original storyline etc… And yet that is frequently a complaint about games.

Is it? The only people I''ve ever heard complaining about the writing in games are writers themselves


LOL

To be honest, the only thing I can see about a Best Writer category is that we aren''t making novels or movies. We''re making games. Pacman had a terrible story, if any story at all, but I keep coming back to that game time and time again. I haven''t played Final Fantasy much, even though its story is more compelling just because I got bored of the game itself.

Lots of people complain about bad graphics too, but graphics don''t make a game, no matter how much people believe in that.
Likewise, you can have the worst story and still get a good deal of enjoyment out of a well done game. Eye, ear, and uh, mind (for story?) candy only work so much for a game before the underlying game itself comes out and shows you what kind of an enjoyment level you will get.

On that note, why not give an award for story? It is a good part of the design for many games. Of course, I can''t think of many good games that have a compelling or interesting story line as a main point of interest. I just reread that and saw it might come off as being anti-writer, but I am being serious. Prove me wrong, cause I know there has to be some games out there like this. I just can''t think of any at the moment.
If these games could be shown to be less enjoyable without a good story to push it, then Game Writing should get its own category.

There are three aspects to stories in games.

The first is the way the game develops as a story. RPGs are the best example here - remember "Little Big Adventure"? That had a well written, if slightly daft, plot concept that made the game interesting and fun to play. Other examples could be the Final Fantasy series, the Ultima series and so on.

Next you have MMORPGs. The one''s available at the moment are mainly hack ''n slash with very little story about. There is a story for AC but it''s pretty impenetrable and is really just an add on to the business of killin an lootin. UO has a better storyline but even so the idea of the interactive game where the players change the story as it goes hasn''t really taken off yet. But for all the interaction in any game - someone has to write it first.

Finally there is writing in any game - FPS, RTS etc.. What I mean here is things like game intros, NPC conversations, and possibly individual quests in a game etc.. Done well they can make a game far more immersive and fun.

So GB - I agree that games like PacMan or chess don''t need a writer. Chess never did. But games that try to create a world and get the player involved in them do need writers. It''s a pity the industry hasn''t come to terms with that yet.

Actually I have seen I downward trend in the ability of games to bring back people for more. I know of several people that have become very disillusioned with PC and console games because many of them fail to bring anything new to the table besides better gfx or different interface. The content is very lacking. Wish I was a member of IGDA to bring up the need for original Story Award. Isnt it the Grammies that have an award for original screenplay?

quote: Original post by Crydee
But games that try to create a world and get the player involved in them do need writers. It's a pity the industry hasn't come to terms with that yet.

Grr! I hate this attitude, and I see it all the time in the Game Design forum. (Sorry to make an example of you, Crydee.)

The fact is, pretty much every story-based game I've played in the last 6 years did have a writer. Thief, Realms of the Haunting, Ultima VII, etc. Even Myth, an RTS, had 3 writers. Many games barely need one. Do you seriously believe that people found Doom less enjoyable because the 3 or 4 story screens were written by a designer than a writer? GBGames makes the good point that many games don't need great writing. Remember, games are not stories.

I still don't believe as many people complain about the story or setting as a lot of writers would like to believe. I don't see reviews criticizing the storyline in games. I don't hear 'normal' players criticizing the story. I only ever hear writers criticizing the story. And they tend to claim that they are "undervalued" by the industry... despite there being writers involved in almost every game I buy.

My only real problem with there being a "Best Writing" category is that it's too vague. Are you talking about someone who writes the story? (Which is often designed by a designer in the first place; the writer just fleshes it out.) Or are you talking about someone who scripts the dialogue? That might be better served by a "Best Screenplay" award. Or maybe you mean the person who writes the manual! That's important too, but not really interesting enough to command its own award. Or are you just looking for originality, which is what you implied in the first post? In my opinion, originality is overrated, and these awards tend to be to reward quality, not originality. "Best Story" might work, but "Best Writer" would not.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost ]

Edited by - Kylotan on January 20, 2002 10:48:40 AM

quote: Original post by Kylotan
I still don''t believe as many people complain about the story or setting as a lot of writers would like to believe. I don''t see reviews criticizing the storyline in games. I don''t hear ''normal'' players criticizing the story. I only ever hear writers criticizing the story. And they tend to claim that they are "undervalued" by the industry... despite there being writers involved in almost every game I buy.

To be fair, our game, BattleSphere, being mostly critic-proof (it''s a long story), took it in the shorts on the issue of storyline. There really wasn''t a story beyond the premise of a bunch of alien races battling it out for dominance. And frankly, the game didn''t need a storyline any more than Quake or Unreal does because it delivered a double-sized helping of action and strategy.

Personally, I think the people who did this just wanted to knock the game down a notch because it had achieved legendary status for actually shipping and actually being a fun jaguar title, but there you have it.

I think writers have a really hard time wrapping their brains around good game storylines. Like Costikiyan said: Games are not stories. Stories are about interesting characters and the interesting choices they make. Games are all about making decisions for yourself based on incomplete information. Even deathmatching is a just a bunch of decisions about who to shoot and with what weapon. Movies and books written this way are amazingly dull experiences for me.

If the game''s decision process is fun, you have a hit. If it isn''t, you have a bomb. You can pull some heart strings with child-like appearances or behavior, but I''ve yet to get the least bit emotionally involved with a game storyline. Maybe if people on the other end of MMORPGs actually died when their character died (just kidding)...

For me, the storyline serves only to provide background as to why I have to run across a bridge full of monsters armed with only a shot gun and my wits. I''d still do it without the storyline, but its presence can add color to an already enjoyable task.

So in the end, writers? Who needs ''em? We need game designers who understand decision-making.

If you''re talking about an FPS I agree. Games like Quake etc... don''t need a story; although dialogue could be improved in some of them. The same is true of an RTS and there''s not a lot of dialogue needed in those either. [However if RTS''s are to become more strategy based, instead of battle tactics based, the strategy needs a story input.]

But move more into RPG - is Diabolo FPS or RPG??? - and the need for a good storyline becomes critical IMHO. Kylotan gives examples of games with a good story - Thief etc.. - and there are others. But there are also a lot of games without.

"Games are not stories. Stories are about interesting characters and the interesting choices they make. " - Varelse

Yes - but in what context? First the "interesting character" has to be made interesting - who does that? Second he / she has to be placed in a context that engages the player - who does that? And finally although the player takes decisions those decisions have to be related to a story of some sort. Obviously the player can stay in one room all the time talking to a table - that''s a decision. Interesting? No.

That''s not even considering MMORPG''s where I think there will be no progress beyond hack ''n slash until the games have an enveloping story.

And ok Kylotan - best story is probably a better description of what I was intending - I need to get me a writer