This is kind of an esoteric question, but how many people have played dodge danpei on the sega genesis? It was a dodgeball game of sorts. I never really liked playing sports games, but I spent many hours playing when I was a kid. It''s like the game "super dodge ball" for nintendo, but it didn''t have the annoying flicker, and it rendered pretty fast for good fast action. I finally found the ROM on some obscure site, and actually had just as much fun playing it as I did back then. Which leads me to wonder...is it fun for me because it''s just nostalgic? Or is it because the gameplay is really that fun? Though there were only basic moves like run, jump, crouch, catch, and throw, a combination of these developed into strategies to throw off the catch timing of your opponent(like running towards the opponent and jumping and turning around at the last second to pass to a teammate to throw) For those of you that have played dodge danpei(or even super dodge ball), would you say that the game play was actually good? Or were there aspects of it that you would have improved on? Wil

Well I''ve played most of the dodgeball games ever since the thing first came out in arcades back in the ''87 I believe. And no, you''re not just nostalgic cause the gameplay was really that fun when it was first released into the market. However, the problem is these sport type games gets old really fast and the developers never took the time to seriously improve the game.

Take the snes version for example. The graphic and sound was slightly better than the original nes game. But most of the gameplay was exactly the same. One ball, two square rings, 6 guys each side, and each person on the field are able to throw two special technique attacks. What the snes version tried to improve was an rpg-like system for the players where you earn money from winning matches then spending the cash to upgrade them. The game developer didn''t improve on the key focus of the gameplay at all. They took a 360 degree turn on the game and turn it into something completely different; a sports simulation instead of a sports game. And for that, the game selled miserably and never reached into other markets outside japan.

What they should have done is improve the action gameplay like changing the field layout, include field obstacles, and allow the players to perform multiple trick shots. The moral of the story is combining two genre will NOT get you a better game if you don''t offer anything new. All you people out there that''s doing the same thing mark my words cause you will fail and DIE.

No new games to play and reading useless forum posts makes mooglez VeRy CrAnKy!#!

"The moral of the story is combining two genre will NOT get you a better game"

Self-styled "game designers" who think the holy grail of games is to add "RPG elements" to other genres need to have their balls punched. That is to say, I agree with the above quote.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
the problem is these sport type games gets old really fast and the developers never took the time to seriously improve the game.
*clipped*
What they should have done is improve the action gameplay like changing the field layout, include field obstacles, and allow the players to perform multiple trick shots.

But the problem you ascribe to sports games...you can only add so much without changing the actual game, right?

Let''s take an equivalent in other sports: Blitz(football) and NBA Jam. They''re like the game in real life, but with some truths stretched(like fire in the hoops), for some fun and eye candy. But if you add stuff like field obstacles or change field layout, would you still have basketball or football?

*aside* Hehe, it reminds me of that sports drink commercial a while back(in the US). They had sports stars talking about when people started drinking the sports drinks, so the scores were too high. So the game changed to make it harder to score...So they''d have stuff like moving baskets. hehe.

Anyway, I imagine that it wouldn''t quite be basketball or football. Maybe we''re more likely to change things around in dodgeball cuz it''s not really a recognized sport. The only versions I played was in a room divided into two with elementary kids on each side, where you process to wallop each other with 10 balls flying around. As far as I know, there IS regulation dodgeball in Japan(someone correct me if I''m wrong), and it''s set up like it is in the games(with an inner and outer court).

quote: Take the snes version for example. The graphic and *clipped*
to throw two special technique attacks. What the snes version

Ohhh, there are two? I never figured out how to throw a special technique on the SNES version, just the Genesis version.

quote: sports simulation instead of a sports game. And for that, the game selled miserably and never reached into other markets outside japan.

Was their target market outside of Japan to begin with? Some games are made only for the domestic market...If that wasn''t true, there wouldn''t be games like dating sims.(I presume you don''t see dating sims here cuz someone did some research on the market and decided it wasn''t profitable)

quote:
The moral of the story is combining two genre will NOT get you a better game if you don''t offer anything new. All you people out there that''s doing the same thing mark my words cause you will fail and DIE.

What you say is true though...I''ll have to agree. But what you offer as new can''t completely separate your current game from its predecessors, since people that play it have some level of expectation, right?

quote: Original post by iamwil
Let''s take an equivalent in other sports: Blitz(football) and NBA Jam. They''re like the game in real life, but with some truths stretched(like fire in the hoops), for some fun and eye candy. But if you add stuff like field obstacles or change field layout, would you still have basketball or football?

The answer is yes and no, you would have a variation of basketball/football that is more fun to play. And if the people are tired of playing the same old game over and over again, they will grow to accept your variation as the real "basketball"/"football" game. Sports is ever evolving. And this analogy could also extend to all living games including basketball, ping pong, bowling etc... If you don''t believe me just compare the basketball game rules when it was first introduced and what we have today. Some of the basic rules are exactly the same, but many other things have changed to keep the game more fun or to make the game more fair.

The real problem is that gamers can play the game 5 times per day for a whole week, while the real professional sport player only plays football once per week. So theoretical the evolving rate for video football game vs realistic professional football have a big difference like 5*7 : 1 or 35 : 1 There is no way around this if you model your game after a professional sport; either you make the necessary improvement and change the gameplay else the audiences suffer cause they will be bored. (Especially if you use the dodgeball danpei model where one game last about 3 minutes and I can easily get in 20 games in a short period of one hour.)

quote: Maybe we''re more likely to change things around in dodgeball cuz it''s not really a recognized sport. The only versions I played was in a room divided into two with elementary kids on each side, where you process to wallop each other with 10 balls flying around. As far as I know, there IS regulation dodgeball in Japan(someone correct me if I''m wrong), and it''s set up like it is in the games(with an inner and outer court).

Even the "dodgeball" video game don''t follow the regulation rules. The regulation rule is if you''re on the inside and you get hit, you goto the outside ring until the game ends. I know this cause I''ve played regulation dodgeball back in kindergarten oversea and it''s a sport as brutal as professional hockey.

quote: Was their target market outside of Japan to begin with? Some games are made only for the domestic market...If that wasn''t true, there wouldn''t be games like dating sims.(I presume you don''t see dating sims here cuz someone did some research on the market and decided it wasn''t profitable)

Okay, maybe I was a little over hasty on making that judgement but I would assume that it is possible to reach outside markets as it did with the previous dodgeball game on arcade/nes; almost all the gamers i''ve talked to have played the arcade or nes dodgeball game at one time or another and throughly enjoyed it. Sorry I don''t have any numbers to back it up as the games are pretty old. Anyway, it''s just an opinion. (Leave the dating sims out of this one. I''ve done my share of signing the tokiemki memorial and princess maker petition.)

quote: What you say is true though...I''ll have to agree. But what you offer as new can''t completely separate your current game from its predecessors, since people that play it have some level of expectation, right?

First if you are planning to make a sucessor to the dodgeball games, you are better off to junk it now and start with something fresh as the series and the name have been pretty much ruined. Yes, people have expectations on what they want in a game but notice this, they don''t have a unified answer to what exactly these expectations should be. Not to mention most of them would give you some vague and ambigious answers like basketball must have excitement or football must have cheerleaders. Or you could find it out the hard way by polling say 1000 people on what the specific core rules must be included in the game and then take it''s average. Even then, the poeple on the two extremes of the poll could still complain that the game dosen''t follow the original rules or the game is too basic and dosen''t improve. There is only true one way to please everyone. Create and design a brand new game. Doh!

Chuck up another useless post for me yipee!

quote: Original post by iamwil
*aside* Hehe, it reminds me of that sports drink commercial a while back(in the US). They had sports stars talking about when people started drinking the sports drinks, so the scores were too high. So the game changed to make it harder to score...So they''d have stuff like moving baskets. hehe.

Thanks for that memory!

It was actually a series of Pepsi ads; one of them had Shaq in it (with a bad wig to suggest he was 80) saying "I remember back when we still had 10 foot rims..."

quote: Original post by Mooglez
Sports is ever evolving. And this analogy could also extend to all living games including basketball, ping pong, bowling etc... If you don''t believe me just compare the basketball game rules when it was first introduced and what we have today. Some of the basic rules are exactly the same, but many other things have changed to keep the game more fun or to make the game more fair.

Not exactly. Sports evolve in a coherent direction, so introducing field obstacles in basketball is an absolutel no-no. If you consider all the rule changes since basketball was formalized, they have occured either to keep the game competitive (various timing fouls to force teams to attack) or to incorporate very popular modifications (like the dunk). Some, like the recent introduction of zone defenses in NBA basketball, are integration of differing rules (FIBA has always had zone defense).

What you can do, however, is modify/ignore certain rules as was successfully done with NBA Jam (travelling, fouls, backcourt violation) and the NES game Basketbrawl (which ignored all excessive force rules).

Just a few off-topic comments.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

quote: Original post by Mooglez
either you make the necessary improvement and change the gameplay else the audiences suffer cause they will be bored. (Especially if you use the dodgeball danpei model where one game last about 3 minutes and I can easily get in 20 games in a short period of one hour.)

I guess that''s why designers sometimes insert a story around characters based on the sports, and you can either play a game, or the storyline.

quote:
but I would assume that it is possible to reach outside markets as it did with the previous dodgeball game on arcade/nes; almost all the gamers i''ve talked to have played the arcade or nes dodgeball game at one time or another and throughly enjoyed it.

So this was my original question...what was so fun about dodgeball? I found that I liked the genesis version of dodge danpei better than the SNES version or the NES Super Dodgeball cuz:

1. There were power balls unique to each character
2. There were a variety of teams and a variety of characters
3. With a combination of easy moves(walk, jump, crouch, etc.), you can create different attacking strategies.

I even found out that you can catch power balls in the air...you jump at the guy while he''s in the air and catch it, and you can hit him on the way down. Stuff like that makes the game interesting for me.

4. When characters get hit, they go flying far, and make a squishy sound.

Well, in NES dodgeball, they panted when their HP was low...that was amusing...

Thinking about it now while I"m typing...I''m guessing most of the fun in the game came from actually connecting with the ball and all the variations you can do to achieve that goal. It''s the same thrill as fragging someone with a rail gun from across the room. What do you guys/gals think?

quote:
game dosen''t follow the original rules or the game is too basic and dosen''t improve. There is only true one way to please everyone. Create and design a brand new game. Doh!

Haha, games can''t be completely new...and if they are, they(and their variations)probably need to be play tested for a while.
But yeah, you can''t please everyone.