quote: Original post by digitaldirt
btw: "Chick-Flick" is just another ignorant guy term. Say a new movie is a love story, like "Serendipity"... oh no... another chick flick. Its not marketed as a chick flick. thats kinda just a slang term that has appeared by beer drinkin, football watching, guys... (I must point, those 2 examples are also stereotypes..)

ignorant guy term? my sisters, mother, girlfriend, and several female friends all use the term (like when i ask how some movie was, they tell me it was a chick-flick, and i know not to bother renting it). it is just a fact of life that some movies appeal only to women (not all women, but enough) and guys who are about to get some action because they took their girlfriend with them and are (pretending to be?) sensitive. so, i think it is ignorant to discredit a perfectly valid term just because you don''t like it. what do you call those types of movies?

quote: Space Quest and Kings Quest were even fun and they were both on the opposite ends of the RPG genre. excellent games though.

they''re adventure games, not RPGs... but yes, those were great games (it sucks because i own them all, but on 5-1/4" diskettes so i can''t install them)...
on a separate note, why do people like to throw around the phrase "so-and-so genre of games are DEAD"? i can see if you mean "commercially unviable", but then you should say it that way. not everyone loves quake or the newest RTS... and no matter how excited about it you are, there are still other people out there that would rather play pong or metroid or space quest.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Hehe. Yes, It is so cliche now that it has become a ''valid'' term. Though, the real term would be whatever movie genre it is in. for instance, "Serendipity", a chick flick? no... A Comedy/Love Story.

and why do you know not to rent a film just becuase it is a chick flick? hehe.

anyway, just keeping it real.

you have some valid points. Adventure games rock! I have not played Grim Fandango. but I did play the demo to another LucasArts game.... The Dig... which was truely a fun game. The music, was cool too.

quote: Original post by digitaldirt
Hehe. Yes, It is so cliche now that it has become a ''valid'' term. Though, the real term would be whatever movie genre it is in. for instance, "Serendipity", a chick flick? no... A Comedy/Love Story.

"chick-flick-ness" is a quality that defies the bounds of movie genre... not all comedy/love stories are chick flicks, and some other movies (in genres you would not expect to find a chick flick in) are chick flicks (i can''t think of any examples because those that i saw i forgot about quickly)...

quote: and why do you know not to rent a film just becuase it is a chick flick? hehe.

because i would rather spend those $3 on a pack of cigarettes and smoke them outside in the freezing cold for the two hours

quote: Adventure games rock! I have not played Grim Fandango. but I did play the demo to another LucasArts game.... The Dig... which was truely a fun game. The music, was cool too.

yah i remember the dig... that was great...


--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Honestly, there are low-tech games that would be very popular among girls - take Harvest Moon, let the animals be bred for color variation like Creatures, cross it with a Ren''ai game, people it with bishounen, give the main character a tamagotchi-like pet, voila, instant marketing success. Make it cheaply, sell it cheaply, market it as simple, fun and encourage girls to compete with each other to see how well they could do in the game. It would be fairly easy to program and runs on even old PCs. Gotta get decent artists though...

sunandshadow is right...low tech games can really rock...Deer Hunter is a perfect example...it targeted a largely ignored market and succeded very well (no matter what you think of the game...it sold lots of copies)...something like 6 years ago Pokemon first appeared on the gameboy and launched a phenominom...heck, Tetris (so low tech even programing newbies can program a clone of it) was a big hit.

Digitaldirt - again, what age range were the females in your group? What video game playing experience have they had?.....also - I never said my popstar parody RPG was the answer...I only said it may be unusual enough to intrest females...and no matter how cliched you may think it is...when was the last time you saw such a RPG?

Most women I know are between about 22 and 56 years old...Of those interested in playing games...they want something that is easy to learn, can be played in short time frames, simple and direct control systems, and features some aspect that directly relates to them personaly or through personal experiences...aggressive, violent, and verbaly offenssive games are not what they are looking for...but they do want adult content games (if you are over 18 and believe "adult content" must alway include graphic violence, extensive swearing, and nudity...well you are clearly in a state of arrested adulensence)...of the 130 or so 22-56 year old women I know...around 70% of those who would be willing to purchase such a game aimed at females are over 35 (90% of these women have played both Solitare and Myst...with about 40% haveing played the Sims...only about 8% show any intrest at all in Ultima Online))...their biggest beef with games today are that they are clearly aimed at boys and so players are forced to "play like boys" (notice...boys...not men).
Most women I know under about 40 have little intrest in playing games due not just to family constrants on thier time...but also because they use computer all day long at work and have no desire to do so in thier off hours.

but as they say...I can only listen with guy ears....

From a female’s point of view, a lot of what has been written is very sexist. When I play a game it is not because it has pink, ponies, nurturing characters and babies in it.

It is because something has caught my eye, whither it be graphics, pre/reviews, theme, or story line. To say the girls aren''t able to play games that aren''t specifically created for us as good as males, due to psychological differences perpetuates the myth that girls always crave the sensitive non-violent path of pacifism. I mean yes there are some psychological differences but there is a danger in going into major stereotyping. We like to shoot things too.

One reason I would guess that many females don''t play games, is not because we don''t have interest, time or reflexes (females have just as good reaction time as men, sometimes better ), but more likely that it is not advertised enough to us, or rather improperly advertised. You wouldn''t necessarily need a female character to draw a female audience, but you do need something more then just guns, tanks, and boobs over and over again. Its the initial imagery. Take for instance magazines, or commercials for computer or video games, typically they feature a bimbo on the front with guns, tight outfit ect. That’s if, there is a female figure on the cover at all. Many games with female characters look like the girls are from porno''s, lol. This is bound right off the bat, to alienate at least some of us or bring into mind that computer games are for men''s enjoyment. Just an initial observation
That is not to say we won''t play these games, but maybe more to the point that we bore of seeing the same type of game & image over and over again. Or that a potential player wont give the game a second thought because of first impression. I''ve noticed one game come out, then someone else will create a similar one, and then a third company will make another...the only variation being graphics or slight twists. The thrill of seeing big jugs doesn''t translate to girls like it does to guys.
You wont see adds like that in magazines targeting a girl audience. If you pick up a magazine that’s aimed towards girls, like say for instance your sisters copy of Sassy, you won''t see any adds for games or computer junk inside besides a copy of Cosmopolitan Make Over. That’s it. Now I suspect that if casually Game Advertisements were thrown into these magazines, that were pleasing or at least presented in a less male-esque manner, ie.boobie free or boobie controlled (without changing the game itself, just the presentation or packaging if you prefer) you might see a peek in female interest.

I don''t honestly believe that girls won''t play games which feature a male character, simply because its male, but more likely because of the perception that they won''t have any interest in playing. Or the game is just crap or because they just don’t know about the games existance. Don''t make a game just for girls, or pandering to us, make one that is enjoyable to everyone, like a good movie or book. I''d also bet why girls play solitaire, sims, and puzzles is because they can be drawn into them easier, without being confronted by a dude firing guns at Amazon space chicks in leather thongs, with no plot to back it up.

I used to go over to my cousins house who was practically glued to his Nintendo playing fighting games, and while he''d ask if I wanted to take up the second controller, he''d automatically pick Mario cart racing or something with the least violence for us to play, unless I insisted on trying out something like Mortal Kombat. And I still remember his little cry of surprise when yes, I was in fact able to do a combo. *gasp* My uncle introduced me to adventure games, and since then I''ve gone on to blowing things up gleefully, puzzles, sims, ect. If it weren''t for him, I doubt I would have played anything because I wasn''t aware of games beyond games like FreeCell, and Solitares existence. Because I wasn''t made aware of it.

But I bet the best way to draw a wider audience is to write a solid, imaginative story. If you can do that, with a wide variety of even NCP''s who don''t pandered to over done stereotypes, it''ll get played by both boys and girls.
(and yes I was being sexist myself )
The ideal character would be some sort of genderless creature, but hey as a last resort why not put hello kitty on duke nuke''ems guns and a nice handbag.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
From a female’s point of view, a lot of what has been written is very sexist...

...I used to go over to my cousins house who was practically glued to his Nintendo playing fighting games, and while he''d ask if I wanted to take up the second controller, he''d automatically pick Mario cart racing or something with the least violence for us to play, unless I insisted on trying out something like Mortal Kombat. And I still remember his little cry of surprise when yes, I was in fact able to do a combo...

...The ideal character would be some sort of genderless creature, but hey as a last resort why not put hello kitty on duke nuke''ems guns and a nice handbag.

Whoever posted this email me please. I would really appreciated if you can discuss some in-depth design from the female perspective with me; particularly on the 2d fighting related things. I am working on designing the battle interface for a game with a few people on here. But unfortunately they don''t have a clue... *ducks under the incoming fry pan* ...a few clues when it comes to fighting games. ^_^ So email me please.

mooglez@hotmail.com

To all,

Okay, some correction on my part is in order. I made an unwise statement in a previous post that could be read to say that FPSes, fighting games, and platformers are not played by girls because they lack the twitch reflexes necessary to play them. I''ve been called on the carpet numerous times by various posters who noted, correctly, that this is BS. What I should have said, and what someone already said for me, is that these games require not only a good natural reaction time but reaction skills learned by playing the game. Thus, as was noted, these are not games in which a beginner can play well right off the bat, so a person (boy or girl) who has just picked up the game will probably do rather poorly and quit in disgust.

Lord knows there are many, many female people who flat out beat me in every physical and mental contest. At the very least, I wouldn''t consider myself better than anyone based solely on their gender. I''m sorry I sounded like a jerk, and I hope this clarifies things.

On a related note, it seems the basic problem may not be that nobody is making games for girls, but rather that nobody is making games for non-gamers, and most gamers are currently boys. Thus in order to play current games one must have played previous games, and more boys played previous games, so they have a head start in the market now. I''d say one way to bring girls into gaming is to create a whole new genre of game where previous experience with other games helps you not at all, and market it in a non-gender-specific way. Then guys and girls will start out on a level playing field. Just an opinion folks.

---------------------------------------------------
-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

Hey,why dont you do it yourselves?

(Im a boy as from my name)

Yes, I said it, why the hell do you ask us? I live by the motto, ''If no one else is doing it, but you need it, do it yourselves.'' Therefore, do it yourself, I mean this IS gamedev.net after all!

Yes, it''s true,
there should be
a Java-Python-C++ language called Japyc
or (Jah-PIC)

A lot of what I''m reading is a misconception or borderline sexist. Women play tons of games, especially MMORPGs. Also, do you think the Sims is selling so well because hardcore game players are buying it? Even in the most hardcore FPSes, you''ll see women players. Creating fluffy pink games is not what women want (as far as I know). It seems like women like games with social aspects and characters they can relate to or get attached to (things that male game players like a lot also.) Don''t think that women are anti-violence, or even necessarily strongly against sex. I know tons of girls that play games, even though they may not be as hardcore as a lot of the male players I know are.