As in, there will still be an upgrade coming for the Mac Pro that will out-perform the iMac Pro?

They didn't explicitly state anything on the issue, as far as I can recall. That said, I'd personally take this as the end of the Trashcan-Mac era - they don't gain anything by having two separate $5k+ desktop form factors, and the Trashcan isn't noticeably more upgrade-friendly than this iMac Pro...

It still has the fundamental issue, lack of upgradability.

That's always remained a fundamental issue. I'm even willing to pay a premium it's just that I'll be forced to buy a new machine down the line.

This time I think the parts like the cpu and the ram are not soldiered into the system like the the previous mac pros.

I have never seen one in the wild. What is the construction and material quality like?

What is the best Windows based machine out there these days? What brand?

The best Windows machines are the ones you build from parts (desktops).

If you want a laptop, the best bet is to get either one of the Microsoft Surface devices, or a gaming-grade laptop (Razer Blade or similar).

We use Lenovo laptops at work and they're usually just fine. I don't know what kind of experience you had with them but in my experience they tend to be the most reliable laptops ever made.

Not a fan of Razer... all of their peripherals seemed to be low-end crap quality wise, every Razer mouse I owned was dead before being 2 years old (been through 3 already, and not with heavy use (I have 2 seperate PCs, so each only sees 1/2 as much use as usual, mice have been divided between the two))... Logitech Mice that replaced them have been running for 3-4 years and are still going strong.

To be fair, all of the Razer mice gave in because of the double click syndrome, or because the button went dead. Seems to be a re-occuring fault with all Razer mice, their Button mechanism seem to be especially cheap even on their most expensive mice (Razer Naga Wireless).

Now, I haven't owned a Razer Laptop once, but given their quality issues with mice, I wouldn't pay the outrageous prices they always ask for their stuff for getting a Razer Laptop. Razer has become, together with Alienware, the Apple of gaming PCs... extremly hyped, good looking stuff (subjective, I don't like the Razer look), sold for way too high prices... just without the guaranteed quality you get when buying Apple, at least in case of Razer.

But I can vouch for MS Devices. MS has quickly iterated to make their Surface devices extremly sophisticated technically, and the quality AFAIK was rock solid from the start... the devices are also not cheap, and MS had to make it work, so its kinda 'expected', still very nice devices.

I have used Dells and HP Business Laptops for work. Quality was Rocksolid. Machines were (are) in use way way, WAY longer than they should (received my current Laptop at work about 7 years ago. Struggling with bad performance by now)... but the machines are still going strong.

Most of the time you have different classes of devices with different target audiences, price points and thus quality.

Budget devices -> everything done to lower the price. These are your sub 500$ desktops and your sub 1000$ Laptops. These devices are aimed at the usual jon doe that just wants to surf the web and write documents at home. Usually performance is adequate for that, but don't expect good quality cases or the most sophisticated internal layout. For laptops, Screens are usually crap, sometimes the keyboard and cooling also sucks.

Gaming devices -> there are also budget gaming devices that are compromising on performance, but sometimes also on quality. Generally though, gaming devices are priced way way WAY too high for the performance they offer. Thus, if the builder has a name to loose, he has more than enough dough to invest in quality. Thus generally, gaming devices from big name builders are good quality... MSI, Gigabyte, Alienware... with the usual suspects selling lower quality at similar outrageous prices, and outliers for the brands that usually build good devices.

Business class devices -> these devices are often expensive even though they don't pack quite the performance we usually expect for such a price. Part of that price is a price hike because a) businesses can afford it and b) the brand offers a different support package for such devices if sold over the right channel. But of course you can expect better quality parts being used. Business class laptops are expected to be used a lot by road warriors, and both laptops and desktops are expected to run 8 hours per day constantly... which is way more than your usual home machine.

Premium devices -> Marketing came up with this category, so its not so clear cut like the others... there are devices which basically are neither gaming nor business devices but are quite pricey for the more sophisiticated buyer, intended for home use. These are well designed machines apeing Apples approach to sell their machines with Design and ease of use, and quality. I guess the Surface devices could be placed here given they are certainly no gaming devices, and not really meant as business devices (business devices are usually not very designed. They look utalitarian rather than stylish).

I am not going into the Workstation class of devices, quality of these usually is unquestioned given the price and the support contract the builders offer.

You will find a range of quality within every class of devices. Given that most people on this planet buy the cheapest device they can find, and most of these are still bought for home use, you can expect budget devices to make up a huge chunk of PC sales. So the total number of user expieriences in the PC space will always bias towards devices which do compromise on quality intentionally to keep prices down.

Thus, TL;DR: you always have to look at the exact machine people complain about when they complain about Lenovo, HP, Dell, or whatever. All of them produce gorgeous designed premium machines, tank like business machines, extremly fast gaming laptops... and cheap crappy budget devices. If a 500$ Dell laptop is of a crappier quality then a 2500$ MacBook Pro... well, the numbers you paid for them should have warned you before the fact actually. You can probably get a good Dell Business Laptop that rivals the MacBook Pro on performance and Quality, MAYBE designwise (maybe not... subjective topic) for 1500$. Still cheaper than a MacBook... just not 5x cheaper.

And yeah, prices pulled out of my A**... this is not meant as an exact price comparison.

@Giant-Reto, I mean that's fair enough, you get what you pay for, sure. The one case where that did not seem to be the case for me was definitely the Vaio machines I used. None of them lasted very long, and these weren't cheap machines by any standard. Idk why my experience was so terrible, but it's interesting that those machines had such issues.

I've heard that the latest iteration of Windows has improved a lot on some really persistent issues, however. Any truth to this?

@Giant-Reto, I mean that's fair enough, you get what you pay for, sure. The one case where that did not seem to be the case for me was definitely the Vaio machines I used. None of them lasted very long, and these weren't cheap machines by any standard. Idk why my experience was so terrible, but it's interesting that those machines had such issues.

I've heard that the latest iteration of Windows has improved a lot on some really persistent issues, however. Any truth to this?

Hm... my own sample size is 1, so take my expierience with a mountain of salt.

From all my own laptop PCs I ever owned, my Sony Vaio was among the best, and lasted the longest under the rigors of daily commute to school. Lasted for my last 2.5 years of university and then kept on going for at least 2 more years before bricking. I am not sure anymore if it actually bricked, and what exactly bricked. Was around the time I got faintly interested in Apple stuff again because of "Appz!" and the iPhone and stuff, and bought a Mac Mini.... so maybe I just put it in a corner and it broke during one of many moves because I forgot I still had a working laptop amongst the electronic junk.

But again, I got a pretty expensive Vaio after my ill fated tries working with cheap laptops before. Must have costed north of 2000$. For a non-gaming device. So again, not all Vaios are built the same. AFAIK there are budget Vaios, and there are Premium Vaios... and the distinction between these are kept blurry by the maker of Vaios (BTW, Sony no longer is the owner of the Vaio Brand) on purpose to sell cheap budget machines for higher prices based on the Brand awarness built with higher end devices.

Take away point is, its hard to find an "Apple like" company in the PC space. Apple has a broad range of devices on offer, but all of them are safely within the premium category in both price and quality. Apple doesn't create budget devices, not mobile iOs devices, nor MacOS devices.

There are few PC makers for which the same could be said. MS seems to go into this direction, but then the Surface series was in part conceived to be beacon devices showing what Windows PCs also could be, the way the Tesla Roadster was in part meant to show car manufacturers that an electric car could be sexy (and expensive) and sell. MS never meant to create budget devices that appealed to the bargain hunters... they meant to create highly innovative concepts that would strengthen the Windows brand.

Vaio always had a good name and expensive Laptops in their range. But AFAIK they newer had this strict adherence to not sell budget devices (or, erhm, sometimes sell budget devices disguised as cheap premium devices) that Apple, or now MS made their shtick.

Weeeeell.... Windows 10 is certainly not bad. It certainly DID improve on Windows 8.1, which again was an improvement of Windows 8. Which was a disastrous try by MS to innovate on the tried and tested Windows formula, in part to make Windows more accessible for mobile and touchscreen devices and follow the heard into the flat design future.

Windows 7 IMO, and the opinion of many others, still stands as the best Windows FOR DESKTOPS ever since... well, since Windows NT replaced the Windows 95 branch of OSes as the mainstream Windows. Windows 10 is, truth be told, not worse than Windows 7. It does bring SOME improvements, and it did roll back some of the most mindnumbingly dumb decisions made with Windows 8.

Its just sad that after 10 years, Windows barely made it back to were Windows 7 was, and started to add small improvements. At least from the perspective of a desktop user.

There are big things that are Windows 10 only which are mostly "DLC-gate" or "patch lazyness", meaning MS either holds them to ransom to force people to move to Windows 10, or is to lazy to implement the feature for the still widely spread Windows 7. DX12 comes to mind. Or the XBOX One Controller Wireless Dongle for Windows.

But these things could backfire in the face of MS given Vulkan is not only Windows 7 compatible but also runs on Linux, thus more and more devs could pick Vulkan over DX12 just for compatibility, and Sony own DS4 controller wireless dongle works just fine on Windows 7... and given these Controller run over Bluetooth, ANY Bluetooth dongle and some free software can do the job. Guess I am not the only one who moved to Dualshock controllers for PC gaming for many reasons lately.

Where Windows 10 DOES shine compared to Windows 7 (and even Windows 8 does, to some degree) is when used with tablets and 2-in-1 PCs... I have several of these, had one back in the Windows 7 days, and apart from the improvement in Hardware the OS itself was just not well suited for touchscreen or pen usage back in the Windows 7 days...

The Windows 10 screen keyboard is one of the best I have used to date. handwriting recognition works very well. And Windows own pen drivers get better and better. As much as I can say Windows 10 is a dissapointment for the general desktop user, and to some degree for gamers (DX12, and some performance improvements, but else not much), its a godsend for artists using windows pen tablets like Surfaces or Wacom Companions.

If Windows has achieved anything in the last few years, its that their OS now works equally well on Desktops, Laptops and Tablets, no matter if used with M/KB, Fingers or a pen.

I hope Apple it taking notes for the inevitable MacPad Pro with Pencil. :)

The one case where that did not seem to be the case for me was definitely the Vaio machines I used. None of them lasted very long, and these weren't cheap machines by any standard. Idk why my experience was so terrible, but it's interesting that those machines had such issues.

To me it seemed like the quality depended on the model (read: price range) and the period when they were being made. From what I recall in the times before Sony gave up on Vaio the manufacturing quality just didn't seem to be there at all. I remember being appalled at how much flex there was in a keyboard on a lower-end (but nonetheless still pretty pricey) Vaio I saw.

Yet my wife's early Vaio from their heyday was pretty sturdy and is still around today. I also saw some more business-oriented Vaios that 'looked' like they would last (I didn't get first hand experience on that).

Such configuration can be in PC kingdom for a fraction of cost of Macintosh one as long as you never pay Xeon processors retail price but got "pulled from working system" ones ( even ES if you feel adventrous ) , I've never seen someone being able to damage a CPU , so it practically doesn't matter if pulled from retail box, system or dumpster.

And for laptops, large screen ones ( 17.3" - 18.4" ) almost always offer better f/p and better build due to extra space. Matched with a nice IPS display , they're always good choice imo.

There are some economical factors in the corporate world which might make you prefer the more expensive machine:

1. You are not paying for the machine yourself

3. Tax deductions when working privately (I don't live in the US) might mean that the real price is not really 5000$.

4. Academic professors have laptop funds to buy any computer they want once every X years, but no budget for periodical upgrades

5. Startups sometimes have a cap on the amount of money they can pay as sallaries, but have other accessible funds for purchasing equipment. So I cannot raise your salary by 5000$, but I can get you a beast of a machine.

etc...

You can compare it to flying business class. Not many people do so privately, but noone refuses a ticket from their workplace. In fact I would theorise that the whole concept of "business class" (and probably first class as well) is populated mostly by people who did not pay for their plane ticket.

As such, judging a "premium" machine based on it's price kind of misses the point...