A few weeks ago I saw a tv docu about fighter pilots watching NATO airspace over the baltic sea and they showed that Russian aircrafts were regularly sneaking in to test the response times. I guess they got burned now from trying it too often or on wrong place.
Yeah, they do simulated bomb runs toward swedish navy bases, and fly without transponders near major airports. Pretty risky stuff.
To be fair though, NATO likes to violate our airspace too, and does it more often then Russia does.
Its weird they do not tell if the pilots survived in tv-news.
Not that weird considering where it happened and who was involved. Seems to be different news every hour on that. Last I heard, one was killed by terrorists/rebels/whatever and one was rescued by the syrian army.
Interestingly, Russia claims they were over Syrian terriory when being shot at whereas the Turks say they were in Turkish airspace.
No people were killed, and the pilot was gunned while on his parachute, all at the same time.
So, we see that the propaganda machine is still working. As for "NATO", I don't really see a NATO in there. I see one country (incidentially a NATO country) shooting at an airplane of non-NATO nation under what can at best be called dubious conditions. I'm sure they didn't ask for a sign-off at the NATO council, so even if they've provoked a war with that, it's doubtful that the NATO will let themselves be dragged into it.
Turkey has been illegally occupying Cyprus for the last 41 years (the Greek were not alltogether innocent of the events in '74, but that's irrelevant -- an act of war against an EU country, and NATO member, is going on, and nobody bothers).
So what's the worst thing to happen? Russia invades Turkey and occupies Turkey for retaliation. Who will care?
Besides, the way it looks to me, neither Russia nor Turkey are really fighting IS. Russia is... well, Russia. Enough said.
War is good for both of them, it's lucrative to keep it going for another 5-10 years. While Russia is bombing Bad Guys in Syria, nobody looks at what happens on the Krim. And while Turkey has two million Syrians for blackmailing Europe, negotiations about entering the union go forward at a much more agreeable pace. Russia has a lot more resources to spend, too. Therefore, an ongoing war will weaken them a lot less than it will weaken Europe. Which will be an advantage when they're annexing Europe in 2030.
Turkey has actively supported IS in the past because they kill Kurds. Now, Kurds are today what Jews were 75-100 years ago. Nobody wants them in their country, and indeed everybody wants to see them dead and looks away when someone kills them. Of course when that happens, you pretend being shocked and you condemn that inhumane act (and afterwards you lower the window blinds and start to dance when nobody can see it). At the same time, IS kills Christians and Jews, which is a good thing. They are all infidels, so it's Sword and Fire for them. Yes of course, it's not appropriate for a good western-friendly Sunnite to kill infidels. But it's OK to look away when someone else does it.
Some months ago, it was realized that maybe the IS is maybe, just maybe, a tidbit too extreme even for true, good Muslims living in an almost democratic state with an almost correctly elected president who almost respects human rights. After all, Sunni Islam is the wrong Islam, only Salafi is the one true, correct belief as everybody knows. Which is of course why IS detonates bombs in Turkey, too. The infidels must die. Also, it just doesn't look good for a country trying to join the EU to support IS. That kind of sets you back 30 years in negotiations.
Now, there's a simple solution to all three problems. Give weapons to the Kurds. Let Kurds kill IS, and let IS kill Kurds, and everybody can see how you are supportive of the Kurds. A real altruist, so to say. Hey, it's not your fault if the IS kills Kurds.
Fast forward a few months. IS is still there, the Kurds are still there, and now they have the weapons that you gave them. Oh darn.
So, now it's too late to hang the jacket into the other wind, but sure enough it's no mistake not fighting IS too hard. Let's just fight them hard enough so nobody gets a suspicion.
Woah, and now the Russians almost crossed the border. What an insult.
Well, let's say I have some interest in this incident as someone from Turkey. Unfortunately this has happened due to countless times of intrusion of Russia before that although warned. Hard to realize the logic behind not replying when you have been warned 10 times in 5 minutes.
The Russian jet was shot down, yes, however, the pilot ejected safely, and was then shot to death by Turkish forces as he was descending ...
Afaik two pilots have been ejected, one is murdered by locals there , other is rescued by Syrian army.
what happens when ISIS is gone?
It's not much likely for ISIS to go in short or mid term but when they do, it is very likely for Syria to end as a federative state like Iraq now but it is something Turkey doesn't want as it may eventually lead to a Kurdistan involving Iraqi, Syrian (access to Mediterrenian) and maybe some Turkish lands. It is why Turkey declared to hit anyone passing west of Euphrates.
That is extremely hostile. Especially coming from a country that has a policy of provocatively violating Greek airspace 1000 times a month...
The main cause of this "violation" comes from different understanding of territorial air space. At Aegean sea, there are many minor islands belonging to Greeks and it is a rather small sea. Therefore if Greece declares their air space as 12 miles, it leaves only 10% of sea to Turkey and furthermore no sea at all at some regions. It is rather technical but point is Turkey considers air space as 6 miles for both countries. In that case, what Greeks call as violation is actually not for Turkey.
And meanwhile, Turkish, US, Australian, Israeli, etc, planes are constantly violating Syrian airspace
We had and are having same issue with Iraq as well. You protect your border but there is not an authority on the other side, terrorists and smugglers are on free roam. As there is no de facto authority to prevent/protect you, Turkey uses own right for hot pursuit and operations time to time.
Turkey has been illegally occupying Cyprus for the last 41 years (the Greek were not alltogether innocent of the events in '74, but that's irrelevant -- an act of war against an EU country, and NATO member, is going on, and nobody bothers).
Just wondered if you didn't notice that occupation when letting Cypriots into EU? (Maybe you also didn't notice that before accession, Cypriot Turks approved a plan reuniting island while Greek Cypriots rejected.) Who told EU to let them in?
And while Turkey has two million Syrians for blackmailing Europe, negotiations about entering the union go forward at a much more agreeable pace.
Maybe EU should care about refugee camps at Syria before they hit the door, but they couldn't care less unless they have to. And for that more agreeable pace, seems you mean better than "no progress at last 5 years" so "literally better than nothing".
Kurds are today what Jews were 75-100 years ago
I don't recall a Jewish terrorist organization killing over 30K people but still I couldn't care less about Kurds on my own but that doesn't mean I want them dead, I want them gone ( I am not buying integrationist policies ), let them have their Kurdistan (which is de facto already present at Iraq) and live happily ever after there. Unlike majority in Turkey, I am even ok with getting rid of some of southeastern Turkey where they vote around 70%-90% for Kurdish party.
I'm sure they didn't ask for a sign-off at the NATO council, so even if they've provoked a war with that, it's doubtful that the NATO will let themselves be dragged into it.
So what's the worst thing to happen? Russia invades Turkey and occupies Turkey for retaliation. Who will care?
If a NATO country is attacked, NATO has to respond.
Article 5 says that an armed attack on one NATO country is an armed attack on all NATO countries, and is kindof a cornerstone of the whole alliance.
I'm pretty sure they'd have to "care", If they don't, they can just as well dismantle NATO since it serves no purpose anymore.
I'm not much of an expert with international law in general and NATO treaties in particular but in Civilization and other games your allies are not required to honor an alliance if you start a war (whether deliberately or screwing something up badly enough)...
I think it's unlikely this particular incident will lead to anything but stern words.
What is worrying is what might happen down the line because of communications being even worse then before.
Suddenly you have a conglomerate of incidents wrapped up in propaganda so dense noone really knows what goes on and both sides saying "Hey, they attacked first!"
I don't recall a Jewish terrorist organization killing over 30K people but still I couldn't care less about Kurds on my own but that doesn't mean I want them dead, I want them gone ( I am not buying integrationist policies ), let them have their Kurdistan (which is de facto already present at Iraq) and live happily ever after there.
Is it just my work-stress level talking or is that paragraph really a perfect showcase why that region of the planet is in such a poor state?
I'm not much of an expert with international law in general and NATO treaties in particular but in Civilization and other games your allies are not required to honor an alliance if you start a war (whether deliberately or screwing something up badly enough)...
I don't recall a Jewish terrorist organization killing over 30K people but still I couldn't care less about Kurds on my own but that doesn't mean I want them dead, I want them gone ( I am not buying integrationist policies ), let them have their Kurdistan (which is de facto already present at Iraq) and live happily ever after there.
Is it just my work-stress level talking or is that paragraph really a perfect showcase why that region of the planet is in such a poor state?
I (in)tend to believe it is just work-stress level rather than politically-correct ultrahumanist view (involving ponies and unicorns as well) that wouldn't bare/care/dare to live with that people not caring to integrate.
