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About the Windows 10 spying issue...

Started by November 03, 2015 02:32 AM
89 comments, last by Servant of the Lord 8 years, 10 months ago

Not a bad credit score, but going into a bank to ask to borrow a sizeable amount of money when you have no banking history and nothing comes up on a credit report? You could be making more than enough to meet all your repayment obligations, but they're going to reject your application in the vast majority of cases if there is no credit history even if they would have accepted someone with relatively poor history.

Well, that is not really possible (at least not here). You will not find any non-fraudulent employer without a bank account, and your credit history includes both debit and credit (with monthly average, and with a track of all missed payments, and finally a total overall score that depends on the previous, and other information such as where you live). Credit history also includes credit/debit unrelated things such as mobile phone or internet contracts.

You are also almost certain not to find an apartment without a bank account and a credit history check. Assuming you do find one, you will not be able to pay for television (which you are required to do whether you have one or not) because they only accept direct debit.
That is, unless you're a social benefit parasite (like, being healthy and 23 years old and living on welfare for 5 years already). Benefit parasites get everything for free, and only the best, no questions asked. Of course, what else.

The bank account / apartment thing is a funny catch-22 situation by the way (and not new, was similar 30 years ago already). You need a job for being able to pay for an apartment, and of course the landlord usually wants to know your job, too. Also, you need a bank account to get a job and the apartment. But of course, you need to register a permanent address first to open a bank account... which you're not getting without a job and a bank account.

I sometimes wonder how other people do that (I was lucky enough not having that issue back then). Maybe they have sosmeone sign a bail for them, or such...

I've purposefully avoided all social media, and have 0 searchable footprint, and it's never been an issue for me.

Do you send emails at all? Except if you wrote your own program - which is certainly overkill/not worth the effort then you have a digital footprint

If you use windows 10, you are forced to have an account then you have a digital footprint

Non-consensually your IP is your face, do you use search engines? then you have a digital footprint

And the creepiest part of it, your labtop's webcam is being actively-secretly used to spy on YOU, even when you think its not on

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

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Well, that is not really possible (at least not here).

I'm not sure where is "here", but try to move to some other country, especially one across the ocean and you will be able to experience it first-hand :)

No credit history, no bank account, no apartment, 100% fun.

Might be offtopic here, but:

I sometimes wonder how other people do that (I was lucky enough not having that issue back then). Maybe they have sosmeone sign a bail for them, or such...

I registered for my first bank account when I was still living with my parents. Now that I think of it, my parents took me into the bank to register for my first account when I was about 10 because my parents wanted me to save my Christmas money for college! Also, are you talking about buying or renting apartments? I've rented a place before without having a credit card.


If you use windows 10, you are forced to have an account

Actually you are not forced to do so. There's a little option at the bottom of the install screen to setup the computer with only a local account.


I've rented a place before without having a credit card.

Without a credit card, sure. But without a credit history (at least in the states) is incredibly hard. Reputable landlords and realtors tend to run a credit check before letting you near the place.

Tristam MacDonald. Ex-BigTech Software Engineer. Future farmer. [https://trist.am]


If you use windows 10, you are forced to have an account

Actually you are not forced to do so. There's a little option at the bottom of the install screen to setup the computer with only a local account.


I've rented a place before without having a credit card.

Without a credit card, sure. But without a credit history (at least in the states) is incredibly hard. Reputable landlords and realtors tend to run a credit check before letting you near the place.

Tristam MacDonald. Ex-BigTech Software Engineer. Future farmer. [https://trist.am]

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I registered for my first bank account when I was still living with my parents.


Same here.

Do you send emails at all? Except if you wrote your own program - which is certainly overkill/not worth the effort then you have a digital footprint

Even if you do write your own client, if it goes to someone else's address that bounces off a company server or ends up in a company server for the addressee to read it, it'd be stored digitally.

If you use windows 10, you are forced to have an account

No you're not forced to, you can choose to not use a Microsoft account, and just use a regular local Windows account.

When Microsoft asks you to use a Microsoft account, there's a little link near the bottom that says, "Don't have a Microsoft Account? Create a new account". Click "Create a new account", and a Create Microsoft Account form pops up. At the bottom of that second page is a link that says, "Sign in without a Microsoft Account"

Yea it's a little hidden, but as a tech-savvy user, I didn't have any difficulty finding it on Win8.1 or Win10, even the first time I encountered it, even without knowing in advance that a Microsoft Account was needed or that it could be avoided. It took me five seconds. I was like, "What? A Microsoft Account is required?! Oh, no, wait, there's a link here to skip it.". And that was the end of the matter.

This is another example of things people are freaking out about as if they are new to Win10. Win8 was the same way, three years ago. Both push but do not force the use of a Microsoft Account.

Apparently, most the internet just started freaking out and blogging about the outrage without A) reading the page B) experimenting, or C) doing a web search, and then the other half of the internet just took it at their word, without A) validating it themselves, B) doing some critical thinking, or C) doing a web search.

Someone should sell a program that "Allows you to use Win10 without a Microsoft Account!", and all it would have to do is highlight the links more clearer. laugh.png

And the creepiest part of it, your labtop's webcam is being actively-secretly used to spy on YOU, even when you think its not on

Very very very very rarely does that occur. We hear about the hundreds of cases where that happens, and the potential thousands of cases where it might be happening, but not the billions of cases where it's not happening. It's a non-threat. I'm more likely to be mauled by a rampaging hippo. And if you think it is a threat, just unplug the webcam cord from your laptop's motherboard, or tape over the camera until you need it.

Most of those occurrences are from script kiddies accessing unsecured routers.

'm not even going to mention how being on LinkedIn is as important for finding a job as having diploma and work experience... and if you don't use Facebook, you must certainly be either and oddball or a terrorist.


I've purposefully avoided all social media, and have 0 searchable footprint, and it's never been an issue for me.

Social media isn't the only source of privacy invasion.

Most webpages you visit is tracked to a single device, not just by cookies, even when you don't have an account, and even when you shut your computer down and start it back up. Not paranoia, this is what we know is happening, and hundreds of companies are racing to see who can track you better and collect more data on you. There's big money in it. Most of the companies can't track you perfectly yet, but some of the biggest ones can do so almost-perfectly. Google, for example, knows every site I visit and everything I post online. Ofcourse, they just run programs over it to try to algorithmically decipher who I am - they don't have anywhere near the manpower (or the desire) to give human attention to anything I post.

Even on GameDev.net, you're being tracked by Google.

This isn't conspiracy, this is fact. The panic and drama of some people who apparently just figured this out doesn't help, but a lack of knowledge doesn't help either. This has been going on well over a decade, and isn't isolated to social media.

Some individual companies are using four or five different ways to track you, so even if one fails to pick you up, some of the others might, and then they are correlated behind the scenes.

Even apart from tracking, some companies are even developing writing-behavior-analysis tools to try and correlate articles, emails, and forum posts you've written in the past, to articles and forum posts on entirely different sites, basically "fingerprinting" your writing years after the fact, by comparing word-frequency, grammar, punctuation, spelling, idiom usage, and so on. This side of things is still being developed, and isn't being widely-deployed yet, but it'll also be invisibly ubiquitous in another four or five years.

As I said in an earlier post, we get glimpses of what's going on behind the curtains every so often, and we can connect the dots reasonably well.

If I wanted to, I could fight against it and reduce Google's knowledge of me from ~95% tracking to ~10% tracking, and also make it harder for them to correlate behind the scenes, but that's just wasted effort in my situation, even considering where I think history is going (and I don't think it's going anywhere good, believe me!). So despite me not liking where history is going, and despite me having a less optimistic view of the future than many here, I still don't think panic and exaggeration is the solution. I still use Google and I still use Win10; I'm not worried much about Microsoft, and I'm more worried about Google, but my actions up til now and moving forward is to observe, understand, contemplate, but not panic.

I registered for my first bank account when I was still living with my parents.
[...]
Also, are you talking about buying or renting apartments? I've rented a place before without having a credit card.

I guess registering a bank account while you live at your parents' would work. That's what I did too (without ever thinking of it, I think I already had an account at age 10 or the like, too).

Credit card isn't needed, but credit history (and an account) certainly is needed in Germany. Thing is, unless you already have one, it's hard to get, because you need to register a permanent address first. Which you can't do without having an apartment, which you're not getting without that bank account...
Buying an apartment if you do not already own one is no solution either, because you are a fool if you do the transaction without escrow deposit, and that doesn't work without bank account. I was lucky enough to never have to bother with that...


Very very very very rarely does that occur. We hear about the hundreds of cases where that happens, and the potential thousands of cases where it might be happening, but not the billions of cases where it's not happening. It's a non-threat. I'm more likely to be mauled by a rampaging hippo. And if you think it is a threat, just unplug the webcam cord from your laptop's motherboard, or tape over the camera until you need it.
Most of those occurrences are from script kiddies accessing unsecured routers.

I will assume you are too gentle-manly to knowsmile.png :- that these big guns in google, Microsoft, Apple... are sharks, they are nasty and brutal business people.
When they consider data gathering actions (including snooping), moral high ground is not one of the criteria. Moral high ground is the thing politicians do to pretend they are compassionate and are on the side of the masses
Criteria the sharks use are -Is there a loophole that can be exploited in the law? Technologically, Is it possible? can we get away with it? Can we cover our backs in the ToS?
The fact that most people think that this kind of snooping is rarely done is even the more reason they will exploit it, as most people would not think it necessary to disconnect webcam like you suggested
The only questions you might ask are:-
Do the sharks have the resources? Note this not done round the clock, only when your computer is on and you are online. So yes
Is image processing advanced enough to algorithmictically shift through loads of image data like text data? With fast advancing Facial recognition technology - yes!
Do they have anything to gain from live video data snooping? Putting a face to text analytic data is very valuable particularly to NSA (NSA's reasons ofcourse different). With NSA for instance, what if there are red flags from text data and they need to put a face to who was online at that time within the household?
Putting a face to text data is also very valuable data to Google, Microsoft and Apple. Unlike the NSA who can supplement these with what was gathered from Facebook, these other companies can't. So they have a reason to snoop even more vigorously
How am I so sure?
There is a seasonal TV program here in the UK called consumer watch. Time and time again a pattern has emerged and its the same every time. Big companies brutally exploit customers, in the hope most can't be hassled enough to pick a fight with them, and for most customers this is true. But for the few that pursue the fight and bring the matter to consumer watch, these companies, to limit PR damage, immediately apologize, give full refunds and make a flimsy statement that they always put their customers first, most of their customers are satisfy and only in a few minority cases were issues have occurred, the employees involved are being disciplined/retrained and blah blah blah
The fact is they knew they were exploiting customers from the outset, and its just a matter of "how we get away with it" or "the rate at which we get away with it"
Now this also happens on much larger scales with the mega-companies

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

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