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GUN ownership, Killings - a US epidemic

Started by October 02, 2015 12:40 PM
180 comments, last by tstrimp 9 years, 3 months ago

A world without guns? Sure

Forbid guns? Sure not

More functional laws (or make them functional)? Sure

You cant forbid guns..Just imagine: youre home with your kids, and you hear something outside, you spy trough the window and you see a bunch of individuals that look like they just escaped from prison sneaking trough your garden.

If you dont have gun (and are not a super hero), all you can do is wait, your family may be raped in front of you.

If you have gun, you give warning shots and watch to see if they run, if not you try to kill them, since you have a gun you dont need to be a movie hero to stand a chance. The fact is you can fight back.

I dont care how often this can happen, the fact that a gun is an excellent protection is enough. Lets wish you never use it.

Plus, forbidding guns will only take the guns from ppl who respect the law, quite ironic imo.

You would be very wrong.

If you don't know the difference between a hunting rifle and an assault rifle; well here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun#Types. Here's some more good examples of hunting rifles: http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/2011/05/best-hunting-rifles-decade/?image=50, clearly a different type of gun than an assault rifle. An assault weapon (as opposed to an assault rifle) can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#Assault_rifles_vs._assault_weapons.



You said assault rifle, I said assault weapon, but for the purpose of my original point, its the same thing. A hunting rifle is a tool, and though dangerous, is by design difficult to abuse. They are just not very effective at killing people. Assault weapons/rifles are a military/police weapon, designed for the sole purpose of killing people, and are exceptionally effective at it. Treating these two types of guns as 'the same' is just silly, and what I feel is lost in the discussion.

Oh, I'm very wrong. I had no idea.

It's actually quite hilarious because your list of "hunting rifles" includes the AR-15 "assault weapon" and then you go on to post a Wikipedia definition of the term that confirms what I said: it's BS political term made up by progressives to ban certain guns they don't like, mostly for their looks. At no point did I interchange "assault rifle" or "assault weapon", nor did I make a mistake regarding which term you had used. In fact you are the one who seems to use them interchangeably when you say "Assault weapons/rifles are a military/police weapon." The Ruger Mini-14 doesn't have the features to make it an "assault weapon" by the definition you provided, and yet it fires the same round with comparable ammo capacity. It would be no less of an effective weapon. In fact, you can even find AR-15s which don't meet the definition. Does removing the pistol grip make it less deadly or something?

So clearly your opinion isn't in the slightest bit biased.

Did I claim to be an disinterested party from a distant galaxy? I made it very clear where I am coming from. Are you claiming to be unbiased?

Thats simply because the medical system has gotten better at treating gunshot wounds. Its not that less people are being shot, but that more shot people are surviving.

Cool speculation.

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I like guns.

I get a significant amount of enjoyment out of shooting random objects with guns in a safe location.

Automatic guns are really fun to shoot. Powerful guns are really fun to shoot.

I have no purpose for having them other than to enjoy myself.

If guns are banned I will be sad.

I do not like to be sad.

I like guns.

I get a significant amount of enjoyment out of shooting random objects with guns in a safe location.

Automatic guns are really fun to shoot. Powerful guns are really fun to shoot.

I have no purpose for having them other than to enjoy myself.

If guns are banned I will be sad.

I do not like to be sad.

This is a surprisingly cogent summary of the pro-gun argument.

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You said assault rifle, I said assault weapon, but for the purpose of my original point, its the same thing. A hunting rifle is a tool, and though dangerous, is by design difficult to abuse. They are just not very effective at killing people. Assault weapons/rifles are a military/police weapon, designed for the sole purpose of killing people, and are exceptionally effective at it. Treating these two types of guns as 'the same' is just silly, and what I feel is lost in the discussion.

An 'assault weapon' functions no differently than any semi-automatic weapon with an external magazine. They have a different shape, and are made of different materials, but at the end of the day they fire roughly the same projectiles at roughly the same rate of fire. You're right that they're designed for different uses and applications, and the *actual* military hardware is indeed designed to support the kind of tactics important in warfighting (from full-auto fire, to shortened length, to manufacturing tolerances that favor reliability over, say, accuracy) -- civilan facsimiles of these weapons mimic some of these things (sometimes length for instance), but not others (full-auto fire). In some cases, that mimicry actually makes these weapons less effective in some sense -- shorter barrels are less accurate, and impart less velocity on the projectile -- the military uses shorter barrels mostly because it makes the weapon easier to carry on your person or in a vehicle, and saves material costs -- though, tactically, they're also handier when fighting room-to-room or in other tight spaces. In a similar vein, military calibers like .223 are less-potent than your typical hunting calibers (say, .243, .270, 30-06) and by a wide margin most available .223 ammunition is FMJ rather than hollow-point or soft-nosed hunting ammunition. Are the so-called 'assault weapons' different from your grand-dad's bolt or lever-action rifle -- absolutely. But are they more deadly than any magazine-fed design in any practical sense? -- I don't think anyone can make a credible claim that they are.

I don't get the argument that the average citizen should be limited to 1880s-era technology so that he doesn't hurt himself or others with it. That's like saying we'd be a safer and more effective populace if we all drove model-Ts instead of modern cars. Even if you take at face value that, say, lower-speeds would reduce traffic deaths, would you still impose that penalty on the entire population who, for the most part, have proven trustworthy of driving more-capable things? Would you feel bad when an injured person didn't reach the hospital in time because their ride topped out at 30mph? Would you do all of that, knowing that the car is just a thing that bends to the will or mistakes of the person behind the wheel, and that we can fix the person problem rather than taking away effective, modern cars from everyone?

*please excuse the car analogy, I know they're over used*

throw table_exception("(? ???)? ? ???");

Alright, so, it's has been 274 days since January 1st 2015 ( today is October 2nd 2015). And there has been 296 mass shooting this year in the U.S.A. (Mass Shooting. > 4 people total killed/injured).

Averages out to 1.08 mass shootings in the US per day (296 / 274 = 1.08)

In my source, it claims the longest gap was 8 days between mass shootings

Guns are totally not the problem

Source:

http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015

You see, the problem with that is that they want you to think Columbine, or Aurora, or the shooting in Oregon yesterday, because that's what's scary, but you'll find among that list things like drive-bys, gang-wars, or disgruntled family men murdering their families and then killing themselves. None of those things are trivial, none are excusable, none should be ignored. But I think we should be angry that people are manipulating the picture in order to use our sympathies to get around our reason.

Lots of peope look at that and thing to themselves "Boy there must be lots of little Columbines happening every day that I don't hear about" -- I hear that same thing and think to myself "Really? with all the major population centers with serious violence and gang problems, there are really fewer than 1 incidence of violence per day where four or more people die? I'd have thought it'd be higher" -- Again, not to excuse or diminish the human impact, but we will not come to any sensible solution to move us forward if we keep framing the problem as this boogeyman outlier. Lets solve problems, not score political victories.

throw table_exception("(? ???)? ? ???");

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An 'assault weapon' functions no differently than any semi-automatic weapon with an external magazine. They have a different shape, and are made of different materials, but at the end of the day they fire roughly the same projectiles at roughly the same rate of fire. You're right that they're designed for different uses and applications, and the *actual* military hardware is indeed designed to support the kind of tactics important in warfighting (from full-auto fire, to shortened length, to manufacturing tolerances that favor reliability over, say, accuracy) -- civilan facsimiles of these weapons mimic some of these things (sometimes length for instance), but not others (full-auto fire). In some cases, that mimicry actually makes these weapons less effective in some sense -- shorter barrels are less accurate, and impart less velocity on the projectile -- the military uses shorter barrels mostly because it makes the weapon easier to carry on your person or in a vehicle, and saves material costs -- though, tactically, they're also handier when fighting room-to-room or in other tight spaces. In a similar vein, military calibers like .223 are less-potent than your typical hunting calibers (say, .243, .270, 30-06) and by a wide margin most available .223 ammunition is FMJ rather than hollow-point or soft-nosed hunting ammunition. Are the so-called 'assault weapons' different from your grand-dad's bolt or lever-action rifle -- absolutely. But are they more deadly than any magazine-fed design in any practical sense? -- I don't think anyone can make a credible claim that they are.


Oh come on, its near impossible to shoot multiple close range fast moving targets with a bolt-action hunting rifle. Its a breeze with a semi or full automatic with an external magazine. Of course a hunting rifle can kill a person, if that was your intent; no one's arguing that. But imagine the Columbine shoots but now with a bolt action rifle. One person dead, the rest are fine after having just run away. In nearly every situation involving people, a bolt action rifle is a very poor choice of weapon.

I don't get the argument that the average citizen should be limited to 1880s-era technology so that he doesn't hurt himself or others with it. That's like saying we'd be a safer and more effective populace if we all drove model-Ts instead of modern cars. Even if you take at face value that, say, lower-speeds would reduce traffic deaths, would you still impose that penalty on the entire population who, for the most part, have proven trustworthy of driving more-capable things? Would you feel bad when an injured person didn't reach the hospital in time because their ride topped out at 30mph? Would you do all of that, knowing that the car is just a thing that bends to the will or mistakes of the person behind the wheel, and that we can fix the person problem rather than taking away effective, modern cars from everyone?

*please excuse the car analogy, I know they're over used*


Taking the car analogy a little further, so you think anyone should be able to drive without a drivers license? There's different licenses for different vehicle types because they operate differently. To group all vehicles together is silly. Likewise pretending a hunting rifle is in the same category as an assault weapon is silly.

Hence why I've said, since the very beginning, what has been lost in this conversation is the distinction between types of guns and their primary uses. I didn't argue that guns should be banned, but I don't think its unreasonable that more dangerous guns require more stringent restrictions.

Oh, I'm very wrong. I had no idea.

It's actually quite hilarious because your list of "hunting rifles" includes the AR-15 "assault weapon"


I said assault weapon, YOU brought up the AR-15 I didn't. IMO the AR-15 sits as an assault rifle masquerading as a hunting rifle, but ya with the right adjustments it can do both. This is actually common of many guns, where different versions can perform different tasks.

and then you go on to post a Wikipedia definition of the term that confirms what I said: it's BS political term made up by progressives to ban certain guns they don't like, mostly for their looks. At no point did I interchange "assault rifle" or "assault weapon", nor did I make a mistake regarding which term you had used. In fact you are the one who seems to use them interchangeably when you say "Assault weapons/rifles are a military/police weapon." The Ruger Mini-14 doesn't have the features to make it an "assault weapon" by the definition you provided, and yet it fires the same round with comparable ammo capacity. It would be no less of an effective weapon. In fact, you can even find AR-15s which don't meet the definition. Does removing the pistol grip make it less deadly or something?


Assault weapon/rifle is a standard term that has been in use since WW2 that the majority of people understand. Sure it has political baggage, doesn't make it any less descriptive. Really I'm not interested in breaking down exactly which combination of components on a gun constitutes what category on a programming forums. The point I was making, as you seem to be missing, was that not all guns are equal, and treating them differently is a prudent course of action, in debate or legislation.

Cool speculation.


Like you've provided sources to back up your ranting...
I'm sitting here, reading this and all I can see is:

American: "but if we don't have guns the bad mans will murder and kill us and take all our stuffs!"

As someone who lives in the UK, where legal ownership of guns is highly restricted, all I can say is "Wut?".

That massively paranoid fear wracked position makes absolutely no sense to me - frankly if your country is that bad that thus really is a fear you suffer from.. shit.. you are beyond hope.

(btw, while we are doing stories, a few years back walking home from a night out I got in a disagreement with someone who then went back in to their house and came out brandishing two knifes. I ran of course.. Wonder what the outcomes would have been if we could have guns?

Two weeks later, going out this time, I got beaten up by two guys due to how I look. Imagine if we both had guns, chances are I'd be dead or serving out a term for man slaughter.)
You know, if they don not have guns, the king of England could walk right in there and start pushing them around.
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