The Harry Potter world and the Naruto world actually have a ton of similarities, despite one being British and the other Japanese. Both start with young teens going to a special school where they learn magic-like skills. Near the beginning of both series a rogue teacher draws the main character into a dangerous confrontation over a valuable artifact that the rogue wants to steal. Then the main character becomes part of a 3-person group that alternately squabbles and works together tackling various adventures, missions, and opponents. They are constrained by their low rank/not being recognized as adults, and have to compete to earn certifications to make progress towards becoming full-fledged warriors considered as equals by their teachers. Destiny is shown through information about the main character's dead parents and a prophecy. And so on.

I'm thinking about inventing a new world of this general type. Right now I'm trying to figure out what kind of special ability the main characters should be trained in, why this school exists, what kind of tests they should have to go through (probably a tournament, but what kind, and held by who), and who the enemy actually is. I don't want to have any explicitly supernatural elements - no ghosts, vampires, demons, or gods. (Edit: This means I really don't want to do the prophecy thing that both examples did.) Magic is ok, as long as it is presented as either a natural part of the laws of physics of a fantasy world, or natural biological abilities of a non-human race. I'm not sure I want to have elements be involved, and definitely not good vs. evil. I want to have a more explicit process of specialization, where the teens have to decide what role they want to specialize in, then earn it, and there would be some kind of irreversible metamorphosis. The end result should be an almost insect-like social structure where the group as a whole is the reproductive unit; no nuclear families. Similarly, individuals would usually not have jobs in some kind of capitalistic system, but instead the group as a whole would be an economic unit.

So, what's the actual question of this thread? Well, two things: What do you all think is good or important to include in such a world's design? And, do you want to recommend any similar series as research material? I'm aware that jedi in the Star Wars universe are kind of like ninja, but I never liked the philosophy or culture of the Star Wars universe much; I see jedi as being like paladins or clerics, and I strongly dislike religious warriors or mages. The anime series Bleach similarly has shinigami who are like ninja, but although there is a shinigami school, the main character doesn't attend it, and he doesn't really act as part of a team either.

Hmmm, I don't think Naruto and HP are so similar. The mood is completely different, in HP the main character goes down into an abbyss of darkness more with each volume, while in Naruto it's more like a recycled episodic unrelated (yet world and characters connected) story. In HP the story leads from some beginning to some logical conclusion (I think, I have not read it fully :D) while Naruto is about completely different stories that just happens in the same setting. Also characters, it's not about "3-person group" in Naruto (it's about like 20-30 total :D), note in Naruto there are episodes from PoV of other characters, HP is strictly about exactly those 3 chars and one being strictly the main one.

Certifications are not so important in these stories as well (OK, maybe it's important in HP, since it's a school).

I think it's dangerous to think here in terms of "a new world of this general type". There are so many different shades involved these become two completely different colours :D

I suppose you should start with deciding if it's supposed to be a school sim (like HP), or maybe some mission/work based (like Naruto). Then the theme/genre. And then characters (how many, personally I would not go for 3, it's overused) and how many points of views.

"where the teens have to decide what role they want to specialize in" - that's not so consistent, teens do not make such choices, specialization comes in later parts of the life (up to highschool it's about getting generic skills)

I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but Naruto draws heavily upon Japanese folklore, as well as other real-world elements and beliefs. For instance, the names of Itachi's jutsu (Amaterasu, Susanoo, Izanagi, etc.) are all actual individuals from Japanese mythology (who have very interesting stories). I actually didn't realize how much folklore inspired many aspects Naruto until I researched the mythology of various cultures a while ago. Another source of inspiration can be found in the great Hokage faces of the Hidden Leaf Village. This has a real-world connection to the faces of presidents on Mt. Rushmore, pictured below.

Of course, there's also the concept of chakra (7 points to my knowledge, but there's the eighth gate in Naruto). Naruto also has many similarities to Dragonball Z. Both of which mention the character Son Goku (a.k.a Monkey King), and in Naruto there's the four-tailed beast named Son Goku as well as third hokage's summoning Monkey Enma. In short, I believe the trick to creating a rich fictional world of that kind is to use different aspects of the real world as inspiration (while including add new elements and rules within the scope of the fictional world). As research material, I would suggest looking into types of mythology and researching everyday things concerning the topic (school) you're interested in. If you'd like to see tropes used in or relating to Naruto as a reference, this is a good place to look.

Note: I didn't comment on Harry Potter because I'm not as familiar with the series, although I did see the first five movies and read the first two novels some time ago.

Good luck!

On Rye

What do you all think is good or important to include in such a world's design?

The protagonists usually have something that is special about them, something that impresses the adults that come accross these young people. Perhaps that's a recurring "teenagers like to impress the adults" theme.

Harry Potter is the "boy who lived."
Naruto has that Nine-Tails thing \ Sasuke is the last of his clan.

Right now I'm trying to figure out what kind of special ability the main characters should be trained in, why this school exists, what kind of tests they should have to go through (probably a tournament, but what kind, and held by who), and who the enemy actually is. I don't want to have any explicitly supernatural elements - no ghosts, vampires, demons, or gods. Magic is ok, though I'm not sure I want to have elements be involved, and definitely not good vs. evil. I want to have a more explicit process of specialization, where the teens have to decide what role they want to specialize in, then earn it, and there would be some kind of irreversible metamorphosis.

Magic (or supernatural powers) and specialisation remind me of Hunter x Hunter, it's a strange and fascinating universe:
http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Hunters_Association

I personally feel that the Nen element in Hunter x Hunter is more believable and sophisticated than the chakra in Naruto, mainly due to the complexity and the variety of forms that you find it in advanced users:
http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Nen#Nen_and_Individuality

Hmmm, I don't think Naruto and HP are so similar. The mood is completely different, in HP the main character goes down into an abbyss of darkness more with each volume, while in Naruto it's more like a recycled episodic unrelated (yet world and characters connected) story. In HP the story leads from some beginning to some logical conclusion (I think, I have not read it fully ) while Naruto is about completely different stories that just happens in the same setting. Also characters, it's not about "3-person group" in Naruto (it's about like 20-30 total ), note in Naruto there are episodes from PoV of other characters, HP is strictly about exactly those 3 chars and one being strictly the main one.

Certifications are not so important in these stories as well (OK, maybe it's important in HP, since it's a school).

I think it's dangerous to think here in terms of "a new world of this general type". There are so many different shades involved these become two completely different colours

I suppose you should start with deciding if it's supposed to be a school sim (like HP), or maybe some mission/work based (like Naruto). Then the theme/genre. And then characters (how many, personally I would not go for 3, it's overused) and how many points of views.

"where the teens have to decide what role they want to specialize in" - that's not so consistent, teens do not make such choices, specialization comes in later parts of the life (up to highschool it's about getting generic skills)

I have arguments with a lot of these individual points, but if I let myself get distracted arguing details I'll just drag the thread off-topic, so I'm going to restrain myself.

I do think that "teens deciding what role to specialize in" is actually a key point - no, it's not realistic, but it's a hugely appealing point of much YA and NA fiction precisely because it's not realistic. In our culture the age of adulthood is the highest its ever been, which doesn't mesh really well with the instincts we've evolved to have in prehistoric situations where the age of adulthood was in the mid-teens. Taking a look at several of the most popular series fanfiction is written about (Naruto, Harry Potter, Pokemon, Bleach, and Full Metal Alchemist) we can see that in all of these settings a young teenager is largely removed from parental supervision and gets a new special power that they have to practice with. This age is 10 for Pokemon, 11 for Harry Potter, 12 for Naruto (which is unusually old within the Naruto world), 12 for the older brother in FMA to become a certified alchemist, and 15 for Bleach. In the Star Wars series jedi initiates are generally chosen as padawans at 13. Dragonriders of Pern and How to Train Your Dragon feature have young teen main characters leaving home to acquire a dragon, and the various Final Fantasy main characters often become mercenaries, turks, or rebels around age 15. Many other series, e.g. Inu Yasha, Uninhabited Planet Survive, Digimon, Dragon Drive, take a similar-aged character from the modern world and transport them to an alternate world (portal fiction). Yet other series such as Yu-gi-Oh present a reverse portal-fiction where the alternate world invades the real world and again is encountered by young teens. There are many, many series where the major worldbuilding appeal is a special academy of some sort where characters learn to use a special ability, ranging from magic to piloting a gundam. One could even argue that these are all somewhat original variants on that extremely widespread cliche story about the orphan farm boy growing up to become the warrior hero.

Also, maybe with more examples here the "general type" of story I'm talking about is more clear than with just HP and Naruto. Not all of them are "school stories" and I'm not sure what to call this subgenre besides that, but basically I want to create one of these sff stories about a teen getting separated from their mundane childhood world to train in a special power related to a special role they are expected to have as young adults (whether that job is wizard, ninja, dragonrider, pokemon trainer, gundam pilot, or what). If I was more familiar with sports stories I'd even include them too - something like Eyeshield 21 for example is about 'undifferentiated' high school students getting dragged into a football team where they train for specialized roles like running back vs. defensive lineman and everyone's thinking about future careers carrying out this role on college and professional teams.

I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but Naruto draws heavily upon Japanese folklore, as well as other real-world elements and beliefs. For instance, the names of Itachi's jutsu (Amaterasu, Susanoo, Izanagi, etc.) are all actual individuals from Japanese mythology (who have very interesting stories). I actually didn't realize how much folklore inspired many aspects Naruto until I researched the mythology of various cultures a while ago. Another source of inspiration can be found in the great Hokage faces of the Hidden Leaf Village. This has a real-world connection to the faces of presidents on Mt. Rushmore, pictured below.

Of course, there's also the concept of chakra (7 points to my knowledge, but there's the eighth gate in Naruto). Naruto also has many similarities to Dragonball Z. Both of which mention the character Son Goku (a.k.a Monkey King), and in Naruto there's the four-tailed beast named Son Goku as well as third hokage's summoning Monkey Enma. In short, I believe the trick to creating a rich fictional world of that kind is to use different aspects of the real world as inspiration (while including add new elements and rules within the scope of the fictional world). As research material, I would suggest looking into types of mythology and researching everyday things concerning the topic (school) you're interested in. If you'd like to see tropes used in or relating to Naruto as a reference, this is a good place to look.

Note: I didn't comment on Harry Potter because I'm not as familiar with the series, although I did see the first five movies and read the first two novels some time ago.

Good luck!

On Rye

Yeah, I did know Naruto draws on mythology for inspiration. :) There's a source story for Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru too, although it may not qualify as mythology since the oldest written version is only from 1806.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiraiya

I still remember how impressive Mount Rushmore was from the time I visited it, and I agree that it was a great detail of Konoha's design that helped give the place character.

If you're curious about mythological inspiration in Harry Potter, it did use a number of such elements, both Greco-roman and European: the philosopher's stone, a phoenix, centaurs, sphinxes that ask riddles, a cerberus, brewing potions in cauldrons, the snake as a symbol of immortality, a seer going into a trance and speaking a prophecy, magic wands, hair as something that should be guarded because it can be used to key a potion or curse to you by an enemy, flying on broomsticks, a witch turning into a cat, magic books which are more or less alive, talking mirrors and paintings, numerology, and the usual ghosts, werewolves, and vampires.

Magic (or supernatural powers) and specialisation remind me of Hunter x Hunter, it's a strange and fascinating universe:
http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Hunters_Association

I personally feel that the Nen element in Hunter x Hunter is more believable and sophisticated than the chakra in Naruto, mainly due to the complexity and the variety of forms that you find it in advanced users:
http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Nen#Nen_and_Individuality

Thanks, I'll check that series out! :)

I have arguments with a lot of these individual points, but if I let myself get distracted arguing details I'll just drag the thread off-topic, so I'm going to restrain myself.

Yeah, no point arguing in ones own thread about trivialities :)

young teenager is largely removed from parental supervision and gets a new special power that they have to practice with

I would keep that one, it's strong. I would probably avoid the school setting (and just keep the practicing part, maybe except certification, but it might be in a form of a "world championship" like DragonBall ).

I would still discard the "teens deciding what role to specialize in", it's not about choosing specialization, it's about not being a kid anymore (parential control). Getting out of parential contol is so strong motivator for youngs (actually, that's the whole premise with growing up :D) that you don't really need any specialization or whatever (who cares if I'm to be a slime trap engineer, all that cares I'm not a kid anymore!)

[...] around age 15. Many other series, e.g. Inu Yasha [...]

Note that InuYasha is more than 100 years old :) And the girl is like 16 year old (which is an "ancient grandma" for this genre). Also, I recall one author (was it Naruto or Bleach? Not sure) planned to make the main char 27 years old and the published coerced him to lower the age due to audience age.

I would still discard the "teens deciding what role to specialize in", it's not about choosing specialization, it's about not being a kid anymore (parental control). Getting out of parental control is so strong motivator for youngs (actually, that's the whole premise with growing up ) that you don't really need any specialization or whatever (who cares if I'm to be a slime trap engineer, all that cares I'm not a kid anymore!)

Well, I am also thinking in terms of the story category "bildungsroman". This German term is usually translated as "coming of age story" but it isn't just about getting old enough to be an adult, it specifically includes finding one's adult place in the world, which is usually a career. Sometimes a marriage also occurs at the end of the story, especially if the marriage is part of a political alliance between the main character and the family of the spouse, where this family controls a country, a monopoly on a technology, or a corporation, which is where the main character will have their new career.

[...] around age 15. Many other series, e.g. Inu Yasha [...]

Note that InuYasha is more than 100 years old And the girl is like 16 year old (which is an "ancient grandma" for this genre). Also, I recall one author (was it Naruto or Bleach? Not sure) planned to make the main char 27 years old and the published coerced him to lower the age due to audience age.

In the Naruto manga pilot naruto was a young demon fox, the son of the adult demon fox that attacked the village. In the Bleach manga pilot Ichigo had black hair but was still a teenager. InuYasha looks and acts like a teenager, so I'm not sure it matters what his actual age is. But it does seem likely that if someone came up with a concept for a fantasy fighting manga with an older main character, a publisher would push for the main character to be made younger because more audience members would identify more easily with a younger character.

I'm thinking that the similarities in HP and Naruto that you see are indeed a whole coming of age thing that's drawn out over a longer period than you'd typically get from a singe book.Adults relate through their sense of lost idealism. Teenagers relate through their sense of being an outlier. Pulling a character aside from family or society quickly thrusts the character into a position where both of those things can be explored.

As far as what the world needs to have, it really could be any world at all. It's more of a question what sort of world are you inclined to stick with long enough to explore and develop everything that you want to. With the assumption that the world is inhabited by humans, you have all the typical differences in ideology and wealth as motivating factors for groups or individuals to be motivated to identify and indoctrinate individuals found with extraordinary abilities towards their cause. (I do believe that is something that surfaces throughout Naruto).

I haven't watched any new anime in a long time to draw upon ideas for worlds or powers though. Just thinking a bit, one suggestion for a power emerging into a world would be one where an individual's emotions manifest physical representations of those emotions and persist so long as the emotion is maintained. These manifestations would be like wild animal beings that would be just as difficult if not impossible to control as the emotions themselves and don't actually stay with the individual but instead run or wander off, possibly to whatever source triggered the emotion.