Not sure if this is in the right forum or not - feel free to move it if it's not.

I'm an aspiring indie developer and I was hoping to make a mobile game which has more depth than the current games on the market. But I feel that if I implement the game in its entirety, the masses are going to be turned off by the idea and go back to simple but shallow mobile games.

To be successful, the game has to have a low file size (so 25 unique levels is a no-no, there goes one unique selling point), be able to be played for a minute each time and have a very simple interface so the masses would play the game more often.

I had figured that I develop two different versions for different needs - one for the masses who only want short burst gameplay and another for a niche audience who wants to be immersed in a game for hours. I would develop and support both versions and name them accordingly so people don't get confused. But there are a few problems with that, specifically the overlap between the two audiences and development time. Also, I would essentially be butchering a perfectly fine and balanced game into yet another shallow game but with prettier graphics. Games is art and this would be like me taking a Picasso painting and turning it to pop culture art.

So, I'm essentially torn between butchering the original concept and getting money for my first game. Realistically, how much shall I butcher from the PC version so the masses love it but on the other hand, I don't sit there thinking that everyone is essentially playing a butchered game? What shall I do?

I'm an aspiring indie developer and I was hoping to make a mobile game which has more depth than the current games on the market. But I feel that if I implement the game in its entirety, the masses are going to be turned off by the idea and go back to simple but shallow mobile games.

You're approximately correct. We've been down this road and it never plays well.

To be successful, the game has to have a low file size (so 25 unique levels is a no-no, there goes one unique selling point), be able to be played for a minute each time and have a very simple interface so the masses would play the game more often.

I had figured that I develop two different versions for different needs - one for the masses who only want short burst gameplay and another for a niche audience who wants to be immersed in a game for hours. I would develop and support both versions and name them accordingly so people don't get confused. But there are a few problems with that, specifically the overlap between the two audiences and development time. Also, I would essentially be butchering a perfectly fine and balanced game into yet another shallow game but with prettier graphics.

Consider having different game modes, perhaps "Arcade" and "Standard" or something along those lines.

Unfortunately what sells doesn't always jive with an artistic vision, and staying true to an artistic vision doesn't sell well. Picasso didn't have to sell his artwork to a million jaded strangers. With almost no exceptions, large time consuming experiences just don't fly with the audience on mobile devices. You'll have to make your choice.

To be successful, the game has to have a low file size (so 25 unique levels is a no-no, there goes one unique selling point), be able to be played for a minute each time and have a very simple interface so the masses would play the game more often.

On this specific point, I think you'd be amazed at what considerate compression and succinct level design could accomplish. Developers squeezed Resident Evil 2 onto a 64 Megabyte cartridge for the N64, even with most of the cut scenes and dialog intact -- that was a game that first appeared on the playstation spanning multiple CD-Roms. Most of keeping the size down is using the right kinds of compression and knowing what can be left on the cutting-room floor.

A much bigger issue is that mobile games and (non-facebook) PC games simply play to different audiences and expectations. Its not that mobile games can't have PC-level depth of play, its that the mobile mass market doesn't want it -- The mobile mass market wands a few minutes of diversion while the wait for an appointment or ride the bus home. This is sort of an immutable property of the market -- mobile phones are pervasive, but they're not dedicated games machines: They don't have large screens or dedicated controls, and they're not generally used in comfortable environments where the player has the leisure of staying. As a result, games that are text-heavy or have very fine UI controls are right out, games that require precise, snappy controls are right out, and any kind of long-form play-session is right out too. Mobile-Games != PC-Games / 4.

There's this really excellent video from one of Unite 2013 where a developer talks about taking the console title Shoot Many robots to mobile. The short version is that the mobile version is an entirely different game that simply adapts the premise, assets, and general feel of the console version to the mobile format. They experimented with direct reproductions and found it didn't work, they even cut out a lot of the initial complexity they had in their first-crack at a mobile format too, because it didn't work either. In effect, they treated the source game as a sculptor treats a block of stone -- The block defines the potential, and the general shape of things, but they chipped away the material that wasn't necessary until they found the form they wanted.

I'm going to assume you're doing the mobile version only for the sales it will net you ($)?

I'm an aspiring indie developer and I was hoping to make a mobile game which has more depth than the current games on the market. But I feel that if I implement the game in its entirety, the masses are going to be turned off by the idea and go back to simple but shallow mobile games.

You're approximately correct. We've been down this road and it never plays well.

To be successful, the game has to have a low file size (so 25 unique levels is a no-no, there goes one unique selling point), be able to be played for a minute each time and have a very simple interface so the masses would play the game more often.

Yeah, more or less.

I had figured that I develop two different versions for different needs - one for the masses who only want short burst gameplay and another for a niche audience who wants to be immersed in a game for hours. I would develop and support both versions and name them accordingly so people don't get confused. But there are a few problems with that, specifically the overlap between the two audiences and development time. Also, I would essentially be butchering a perfectly fine and balanced game into yet another shallow game but with prettier graphics.

Consider having different game modes, perhaps "Arcade" and "Standard" or something along those lines.

Unfortunately what sells doesn't always jive with an artistic vision, and staying true to an artistic vision doesn't sell well. Picasso didn't have to sell his artwork to a million jaded strangers. With almost no exceptions, large time consuming experiences just don't fly with the audience on mobile devices. You'll have to make your choice.

The big problem is the file size. The game can be played for less than a Candy Crush session, and the challenges are usually only 1 minute long. But although the amount of playable terrain you can play on is small, the game would still have background LOD which would be low-poly and without collision. Then, there will be some sound effects, some voice acting (more Candy Crush VA than Skyrim VA) and two music files. I'm not sure how to fit it all in 20-50MB in all honesty.

Even if there are only 3 levels, it would likely to not be downloaded over-the-air and that's a problem.

To be successful, the game has to have a low file size (so 25 unique levels is a no-no, there goes one unique selling point), be able to be played for a minute each time and have a very simple interface so the masses would play the game more often.

On this specific point, I think you'd be amazed at what considerate compression and succinct level design could accomplish. Developers squeezed Resident Evil 2 onto a 64 Megabyte cartridge for the N64, even with most of the cut scenes and dialog intact -- that was a game that first appeared on the playstation spanning multiple CD-Roms. Most of keeping the size down is using the right kinds of compression and knowing what can be left on the cutting-room floor.

A much bigger issue is that mobile games and (non-facebook) PC games simply play to different audiences and expectations. Its not that mobile games can't have PC-level depth of play, its that the mobile mass market doesn't want it -- The mobile mass market wands a few minutes of diversion while the wait for an appointment or ride the bus home. This is sort of an immutable property of the market -- mobile phones are pervasive, but they're not dedicated games machines: They don't have large screens or dedicated controls, and they're not generally used in comfortable environments where the player has the leisure of staying. As a result, games that are text-heavy or have very fine UI controls are right out, games that require precise, snappy controls are right out, and any kind of long-form play-session is right out too. Mobile-Games != PC-Games / 4.

There's this really excellent video from one of Unite 2013 where a developer talks about taking the console title Shoot Many robots to mobile. The short version is that the mobile version is an entirely different game that simply adapts the premise, assets, and general feel of the console version to the mobile format. They experimented with direct reproductions and found it didn't work, they even cut out a lot of the initial complexity they had in their first-crack at a mobile format too, because it didn't work either. In effect, they treated the source game as a sculptor treats a block of stone -- The block defines the potential, and the general shape of things, but they chipped away the material that wasn't necessary until they found the form they wanted.

Thank you :)

I actually plan to go in the opposite direction to Shoot Many Robots - develop the mobile version first and use some of the profits to develop a fully-featured PC game. But for me to make profits (assuming my market strategy works as it should), the mobile version has to appeal to the masses and add something new to win them over.

I'm going to assume you're doing the mobile version only for the sales it will net you ($)?

I'm making the mobile version because its start-up costs are very low. The profits would then be used to develop the traditional pay-once PC version. Getting a start up loan from the government is more realistic than chasing venture capitalists who want a start-up to have already started up.

I'm making the mobile version because its start-up costs are very low. The profits would then be used to develop the traditional pay-once PC version. Getting a start up loan from the government is more realistic than chasing venture capitalists who want a start-up to have already started up.

Just be aware that the mobile market at the moment is not only hypercompetitive, it is also hard to sell your game at a non-ridicolous pricepoint.

If you don't have a known name or brand, anything over 1$ is expensive... so yeah, this also dictates what kind of game gets made for mobile, apart from other things.

If you can port your PC game to mobile without too much work, it might still be worth it... but if you need to basicely make a new game out of it because of the listed problems, you need to really think hard about it.

Then there is the problem with getting exposure / marketing. Granted, with Steam this is also becoming a problem for Indies, but the problem is 1000-fold on the mobile app store. Add to that the fact your game will most probably need to be 10 times cheaper to shift in any quantities on the mobile app stores, and the problem gets even bigger.

If a game is a success on the mobile platforms, its either pure luck, or extremly effective marketing. If you do not want to rely on the first, you need a very good plan for the second.

If, on the other hand, you have a good PC game that you think would sell in the PC market, why not give Steam Greenlight a try? Failing that, you could still try one of the smaller download services like Desura.

You might not have the amount of potential customers like in the iOS app store, but MOST PROBABLY you get more exposure to the potential customers you have because of less games being submitted to them (even Steam), you can create the game you planned to and sell it to the real target audience without the need of cutting it to size for mobile, and because of a 5-10x higher generally accepted pricepoint, you might still make the same or more than when going mobile.

And, AFAIK, there are not more up front costs to Indie devs on most PC download Platforms, so I don't see your point for going mobile really.

Just my 2 cents...

I'm making the mobile version because its start-up costs are very low. The profits would then be used to develop the traditional pay-once PC version. Getting a start up loan from the government is more realistic than chasing venture capitalists who want a start-up to have already started up.

Just be aware that the mobile market at the moment is not only hypercompetitive, it is also hard to sell your game at a non-ridicolous pricepoint.

If you don't have a known name or brand, anything over 1$ is expensive... so yeah, this also dictates what kind of game gets made for mobile, apart from other things.

If you can port your PC game to mobile without too much work, it might still be worth it... but if you need to basicely make a new game out of it because of the listed problems, you need to really think hard about it.

Then there is the problem with getting exposure / marketing. Granted, with Steam this is also becoming a problem for Indies, but the problem is 1000-fold on the mobile app store. Add to that the fact your game will most probably need to be 10 times cheaper to shift in any quantities on the mobile app stores, and the problem gets even bigger.

If a game is a success on the mobile platforms, its either pure luck, or extremly effective marketing. If you do not want to rely on the first, you need a very good plan for the second.

If, on the other hand, you have a good PC game that you think would sell in the PC market, why not give Steam Greenlight a try? Failing that, you could still try one of the smaller download services like Desura.

You might not have the amount of potential customers like in the iOS app store, but MOST PROBABLY you get more exposure to the potential customers you have because of less games being submitted to them (even Steam), you can create the game you planned to and sell it to the real target audience without the need of cutting it to size for mobile, and because of a 5-10x higher generally accepted pricepoint, you might still make the same or more than when going mobile.

And, AFAIK, there are not more up front costs to Indie devs on most PC download Platforms, so I don't see your point for going mobile really.

Just my 2 cents...

The problem is that the full game needs quite sufficient capital to start and finish because of the amount of assets, voice acting, music and sound effects. I've been waiting for a substantial sum for years, but it didn't materialise so I decided to take my original project and focus on just one minigame which can be a completely separate mobile game in its own right. It would be F2P and a lot of research has been done on what works and what doesn't work in a F2P environment - including playing today's apps.

But even that separate game has voice acting, some assets, sound effects and music - but is less expensive than my original project. Apparently, since file size is important, the thing that needs to be scrapped is the 25 levels idea and just focus on having a decently sized level where the entire game would take place. So it's like building the Imperial City only and neglecting the rest of Cyrodiil in Oblivion. The level's pieces would be modular so a decently sized level could be done and the game could be just the right size for mobile gamers to enjoy. The over-the-air limit has increased since iPhone apps started to be released - afaik it's 100MB, correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, the mobile version could easily fit under that limit while maintaining the core essence. But if it's 20MB, I think it would very difficult, if not impossible for the mobile version to work without severely butchering the core essence of the game.

So, in essence, the PC version will be fully featured and the mobile version will only include the arcade mode in the main settlement where the characters live. It would still be unique and the core essence would still be there.

Also, the loan providers expect the game to make revenue in a few months and the full game cycle is 1-2 years. I would need to spend a lot on marketing (a lot more than the development costs themselves) as I'm only doing this part-time, so that the mobile version would make decent revenue. My original plans were to make and sell a purely PC title, but it looks like due to funding, I would need to start small and make that PC title a goal in itself. And I read that credibility is very important in terms of Steam Greenlight to even have the game uploaded there, so credibility is also a factor.

The problem is that the full game needs quite sufficient capital to start and finish because of the amount of assets, voice acting, music and sound effects. I've been waiting for a substantial sum for years, but it didn't materialise so I decided to take my original project and focus on just one minigame which can be a completely separate mobile game in its own right. It would be F2P and a lot of research has been done on what works and what doesn't work in a F2P environment - including playing today's apps.

But even that separate game has voice acting, some assets, sound effects and music - but is less expensive than my original project. Apparently, since file size is important, the thing that needs to be scrapped is the 25 levels idea and just focus on having a decently sized level where the entire game would take place. So it's like building the Imperial City only and neglecting the rest of Cyrodiil in Oblivion. The level's pieces would be modular so a decently sized level could be done and the game could be just the right size for mobile gamers to enjoy. The over-the-air limit has increased since iPhone apps started to be released - afaik it's 100MB, correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, the mobile version could easily fit under that limit while maintaining the core essence. But if it's 20MB, I think it would very difficult, if not impossible for the mobile version to work without severely butchering the core essence of the game.

So, in essence, the PC version will be fully featured and the mobile version will only include the arcade mode in the main settlement where the characters live. It would still be unique and the core essence would still be there.

Also, the loan providers expect the game to make revenue in a few months and the full game cycle is 1-2 years. I would need to spend a lot on marketing (a lot more than the development costs themselves) as I'm only doing this part-time, so that the mobile version would make decent revenue. My original plans were to make and sell a purely PC title, but it looks like due to funding, I would need to start small and make that PC title a goal in itself. And I read that credibility is very important in terms of Steam Greenlight to even have the game uploaded there, so credibility is also a factor.

Okay, I understand your dilemma a little better now...

Still, that minigame you are going to build... why not also put that up for download on different PC download platforms? AFAIK there is nobody stopping you from putting a F2P title on steam, and Steam (and others) more or less follow the app stores in what cut they take.

Of course there is the issue of expectations on PC vs. mobile, and the size of casual games community on PC vs. mobile. But if your game is an edge case either way (you made it sound like) and might get better reception from a more hardcore crowd, you might actually have more luck on PC anyway. Some rather "low cost" Indie title have reached respectable success lately (see "Thomas was alone"), so if you think your game idea is original enough, and you just lack that AAA glitz on the art (or more than just that, see "Thomas was alone" again), you might be surprised how well your game might do on PC.

So I would say, you could really look into one of these options:

a) cutting down download size of your minigame, and optimize it for small touchscreens to go fully mobile like you said

b) branch out, create both a mobile and PC version (and given your current version might already qualify as "low cost" PC Indie game, you might not need to do additional work)

c) drop mobile as a target for now as even your minigame might not fit the mobile audience, and concentrate on getting a "low cost" PC Indie title out there.

I don't think there is much harm in having a low cost minigame style PC game out there, and then releasing the fully blown title later on (given that they differ enough in story and gameplay)... might even build some brand awarness and a fan base before your fully blown title on PC.

Additional suggestion: How about trying to create as much of the game as you can without the loan, and only try to get the loan when you need it for the final stretch? I know others have done that before, for example with Kickstarter proejcts....

I'm making the mobile version because its start-up costs are very low. The profits would then be used to develop the traditional pay-once PC version. Getting a start up loan from the government is more realistic than chasing venture capitalists who want a start-up to have already started up.

No need to get defensive, I'm in the business of making games too.

From my experience however, if you promote two radically different experiences, you shouldn't leave one of your crowd face a product that's shovelware, because it would hurt the credibility of both end-products (even if they have radically different names or even branding). It could even hurt the credibility of your company.

If you truly intend on porting to the mobile environment, you should still deliver something that is coherent with your quality standards, otherwise people will end up judging your quality standard as the lowest-possible-game-you've-ever-released. The mobile crowd can be quite vocal (especially through the use of store-bound rating systems which can truly wreck your endeavor).

Best of luck.

The problem is that the full game needs quite sufficient capital to start and finish because of the amount of assets, voice acting, music and sound effects. I've been waiting for a substantial sum for years, but it didn't materialise so I decided to take my original project and focus on just one minigame which can be a completely separate mobile game in its own right. It would be F2P and a lot of research has been done on what works and what doesn't work in a F2P environment - including playing today's apps.

But even that separate game has voice acting, some assets, sound effects and music - but is less expensive than my original project. Apparently, since file size is important, the thing that needs to be scrapped is the 25 levels idea and just focus on having a decently sized level where the entire game would take place. So it's like building the Imperial City only and neglecting the rest of Cyrodiil in Oblivion. The level's pieces would be modular so a decently sized level could be done and the game could be just the right size for mobile gamers to enjoy. The over-the-air limit has increased since iPhone apps started to be released - afaik it's 100MB, correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, the mobile version could easily fit under that limit while maintaining the core essence. But if it's 20MB, I think it would very difficult, if not impossible for the mobile version to work without severely butchering the core essence of the game.

So, in essence, the PC version will be fully featured and the mobile version will only include the arcade mode in the main settlement where the characters live. It would still be unique and the core essence would still be there.

Also, the loan providers expect the game to make revenue in a few months and the full game cycle is 1-2 years. I would need to spend a lot on marketing (a lot more than the development costs themselves) as I'm only doing this part-time, so that the mobile version would make decent revenue. My original plans were to make and sell a purely PC title, but it looks like due to funding, I would need to start small and make that PC title a goal in itself. And I read that credibility is very important in terms of Steam Greenlight to even have the game uploaded there, so credibility is also a factor.

Okay, I understand your dilemma a little better now...

Still, that minigame you are going to build... why not also put that up for download on different PC download platforms? AFAIK there is nobody stopping you from putting a F2P title on steam, and Steam (and others) more or less follow the app stores in what cut they take.

Of course there is the issue of expectations on PC vs. mobile, and the size of casual games community on PC vs. mobile. But if your game is an edge case either way (you made it sound like) and might get better reception from a more hardcore crowd, you might actually have more luck on PC anyway. Some rather "low cost" Indie title have reached respectable success lately (see "Thomas was alone"), so if you think your game idea is original enough, and you just lack that AAA glitz on the art (or more than just that, see "Thomas was alone" again), you might be surprised how well your game might do on PC.

So I would say, you could really look into one of these options:

a) cutting down download size of your minigame, and optimize it for small touchscreens to go fully mobile like you said

b) branch out, create both a mobile and PC version (and given your current version might already qualify as "low cost" PC Indie game, you might not need to do additional work)

c) drop mobile as a target for now as even your minigame might not fit the mobile audience, and concentrate on getting a "low cost" PC Indie title out there.

I don't think there is much harm in having a low cost minigame style PC game out there, and then releasing the fully blown title later on (given that they differ enough in story and gameplay)... might even build some brand awarness and a fan base before your fully blown title on PC.

Additional suggestion: How about trying to create as much of the game as you can without the loan, and only try to get the loan when you need it for the final stretch? I know others have done that before, for example with Kickstarter proejcts....

I didn't know that Steam had a F2P section, thank you Question is, are there any differences between the PC F2P and mobile F2P crowds? The game will have two versions, because of differing expectations on PC vs mobile, but I don't want to make a third version of the game.

I've been thinking and my current plan is to release a simplified version of the game on mobile and probably on the Steam F2P section while having a very effective marketing campaign. Then, I reinvest some of my profits to branch out and develop the traditional pay-once version of the game with an actual adventure mode but still keep the arcade mode that I put in the mobile version in its full form.

Even my original game project would have an arcade version simply for mobile users. I noticed that some mobile game developers try a "one-size-fits-all" rule and the PC and mobile versions are the same (as a PC gamer, I do feel neglected by those developers). I'm not going down that route as my game is an edge case and could possibly appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers, albeit in different game modes.

I'm making the mobile version because its start-up costs are very low. The profits would then be used to develop the traditional pay-once PC version. Getting a start up loan from the government is more realistic than chasing venture capitalists who want a start-up to have already started up.

No need to get defensive, I'm in the business of making games too.

From my experience however, if you promote two radically different experiences, you shouldn't leave one of your crowd face a product that's shovelware, because it would hurt the credibility of both end-products (even if they have radically different names or even branding). It could even hurt the credibility of your company.

If you truly intend on porting to the mobile environment, you should still deliver something that is coherent with your quality standards, otherwise people will end up judging your quality standard as the lowest-possible-game-you've-ever-released. The mobile crowd can be quite vocal (especially through the use of store-bound rating systems which can truly wreck your endeavor).

Best of luck.

I'm sorry if I was defensive, I didn't mean it.

This is exactly what I was worried about when making this thread. I was worried that the mobile game would be inferior to the PC version but the replies here have reassured me that it's possible to have two radically different experiences but neither are inferior or superior to each other.

The core essence would be consistent in both versions, but how the game plays out depends on that crowd's needs and expectations. I play Candy Crush all the time on mobile, but I never play such games on my PC. Same with any mobile app, really.

And thank you :) I have hope now that both versions are viable, I just need to ensure that the quality is exactly the same in both experiences.