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4X Game - Making sure players 'can't have it all'

Started by January 11, 2015 07:48 PM
15 comments, last by Orymus3 9 years, 11 months ago

Hi,

I'm currently in the process of developing a 4X game and am currently faced with a design challenge.

The game supports a limited amount of ships customization (primarily, weapons configuration).

Each ship hull design has a preset amount of weapons slots, and I'm trying to make sure that this does not end up always being 'pick whichever strongest weapon you can and put it in every slot'.

Currently, I have an energy system which basically forced the player to balance their generator (energy produced) with weapon systems that are added to the design. Since the generator is defined by the selected hull, it gives each hull a unique factor of energy / weapon and gives a general idea of what weapon system configurations are possible (generally leaving several options such as 1 big gun and some smaller, or a few medium guns, etc.)

In addition, weapons serve specific purposes. For example, the mass drivers are slow to charge but attack from long range, making them ideal to shoot at large slow moving targets, whereas auto-cannons have a much better firing rate but lower accuracy, making them ideal to shoot at fast incoming enemies (fighters and light vessels), etc.

For the most part, I believe I am succeeding this far, but I'd like to probe fellow developers for ideas on how to reinforce that concept. I'd like to stay clear from arbitrary points systems (allocate up to 100 pts of 'weapons' to a ship for example) as I believe I've been able to keep everything rational and concrete this far.

Thoughts?

Doubt there is room for more than current setup, it's already practically limited by slot and energy constraints. Maybe one other layer could be limiting weapons they can fit into a ship (like a small vessel can't have Death Star Cannon)

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You sound like you're going the right way. Playtesting will help expose if there appears to be a dominant strategy. If so, you would need to tweak the design of the weapons, hulls or enemies to try create an even balance.

If you have some A.I., you could also develop a headless simulator and simulate lots of fights with various loadouts. Leave that running for some time to gather some statistics, you might be able to find such issues earlier, allowing you to focus more of your playtesting time on tasks you cannot automate like evaluating how usable and fun your game is.

For the most part what you describe seems good: different weapons provide different tactical advantages, and are thus useful in different circumstances.

If anything, I might suggest building on that: have defensive tools (shields, chaff, anti-missile guns, etc.), or sensors that affect the unit's visibility range or what it can detect, or components that affect the unit's movement capabilities (speed upgrades, components that allow passage through certain types of obstacle, etc.), all of which take up hardpoints just as the standard weapons do. Thus a weapon-bedecked Deathstar might be great in a simple brawl, but a quick, sensor-enhanced ship with a single long-range weapon might nevertheless be able to kite it to death, and a shielded one might be able to outlast it. Some components might interact with the environment: if, for example, your game is set in space, you might have occasional ion clouds that wreak havoc with ships; a shielding unit might allow safer passage, while a ramscoop might allow harvesting in order to use the cloud as a resource.

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Doubt there is room for more than current setup, it's already practically limited by slot and energy constraints. Maybe one other layer could be limiting weapons they can fit into a ship (like a small vessel can't have Death Star Cannon)

I thought of that, though the problem is, if I don't want to get stuck saying why each and every ship can and can't use this or that, I need a system for this.

I could use slots of different sizes, or the ship total mass, or even make it so that a player can merge 2 'weapon slots' for bigger weapons, but all of these seem converge in a direction where most players would just go for the bigger badder fatter weapons and ignore smaller ones, no matter how useful they can be. And given how space warfare works, point-defense won't be much use if you can have a large array of long-range cannons to take down all incoming threats.

I'd really like to limit weapons they can fit on a given design, but I need a mechanic that works for this.


You sound like you're going the right way. Playtesting will help expose if there appears to be a dominant strategy. If so, you would need to tweak the design of the weapons, hulls or enemies to try create an even balance.

The thing is, I'm perfectly fine with some weapons being altogether more powerful than others. Let's face it, a gatling gun wouldn't do much harm against a cruiser, and the only reason you're bringing that is if you're worried you might encounter a carrier and need to kill these annoying fighters in a reliable way. In essence, the player wants to willingly sacrifice firepower potential to avoid an encounter he might not be able to handle.

Trying to make a gatling gun stand against mass drivers would be crazy. The only thing it is better at is construction costs.


If you have some A.I., you could also develop a headless simulator and simulate lots of fights with various loadouts. Leave that running for some time to gather some statistics, you might be able to find such issues earlier, allowing you to focus more of your playtesting time on tasks you cannot automate like evaluating how usable and fun your game is.

I already have just that :) Great minds think alike I guess? The main reason I built this system is because I anticipate that a lot of these weapons would show their true strengths in combined arms tactics: a long-range missile frigate with no armor isn't much of a threat, but with any form of tank or harasser in front to delay the enemy, its missiles take their toll before long.


For the most part what you describe seems good: different weapons provide different tactical advantages, and are thus useful in different circumstances.

If anything, I might suggest building on that: have defensive tools (shields, chaff, anti-missile guns, etc.), or sensors that affect the unit's visibility range or what it can detect, or components that affect the unit's movement capabilities (speed upgrades, components that allow passage through certain types of obstacle, etc.), all of which take up hardpoints just as the standard weapons do. Thus a weapon-bedecked Deathstar might be great in a simple brawl, but a quick, sensor-enhanced ship with a single long-range weapon might nevertheless be able to kite it to death, and a shielded one might be able to outlast it. Some components might interact with the environment: if, for example, your game is set in space, you might have occasional ion clouds that wreak havoc with ships; a shielding unit might allow safer passage, while a ramscoop might allow harvesting in order to use the cloud as a resource.

I'm currently satisfied with how I handle 'everything else' aside from weapons actually, and I think that my approach to that will truly generate tactical and strategic depth. This is handled as a separate entity than weapon system slots however, thus I can't really use this recommendation. Toying around with Gratuitous Space Battles (and several actual 4X games) I've come to realize that most people will try to put as many 'guns' as possible, no matter what the ship building rules are, so I've decided to remove friction for them to find exactly what the max is, and focus more on the 'what' they equip. My current challenge now however is to further prevent the 'what' from becoming too common. I feel that playtesting could reveal a design flaw too deep to fix later and want to put an insurance mechanic in there now (and maybe remove it later if I feel it is hardcore) as a contingency to that.

My reasoning is that it's easier to remove something that was put in knowingly that it may be temporary, than it is to add something that was not thought ahead of time to fix a situation.

From your descriptions, you seem to be neglecting a powerful tool: diminishing returns for making stronger ships, so that at the same building and operation cost a smaller fleet of the best ships the system allows is seriously weaker than a larger fleet of nontrivially designed specialized ships. This situation would remove incentives to explore degenerate and obvious ship design, greatly reducing the need to limit what can and cannot be built (all excessive designs would be failed player experiments).

Diminishing returns can be obtained by simple, player-visible means like increasing costs (of any type) faster than the corresponding benefits (e.g. baseline energy shields cost 1, double energy shields cost 3) and/or "taxing" the implicit complexity of multiple areas of specialization (e.g. having N major weapons costs k*(N-1)^2 material/time/money/energy to use/spaces etc. in addition to a fixed base cost of each weapon).

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From your descriptions, you seem to be neglecting a powerful tool: diminishing returns for making stronger ships, so that at the same building and operation cost a smaller fleet of the best ships the system allows is seriously weaker than a larger fleet of nontrivially designed specialized ships. This situation would remove incentives to explore degenerate and obvious ship design, greatly reducing the need to limit what can and cannot be built (all excessive designs would be failed player experiments).
Diminishing returns can be obtained by simple, player-visible means like increasing costs (of any type) faster than the corresponding benefits (e.g. baseline energy shields cost 1, double energy shields cost 3) and/or "taxing" the implicit complexity of multiple areas of specialization (e.g. having N major weapons costs k*(N-1)^2 material/time/money/energy to use/spaces etc. in addition to a fixed base cost of each weapon).

I believe my energy system could actually perform this duty as well. If 'stronger weapons' cost exponentially more energy to operate, I would get diminishing returns, and big guns would no longer be a dominant strategy. It is an avenue worth considering, afterall, if gatling guns cost 1 energy, and gauss guns cost 25, I can see value in undergrading.

That being said, I feel that, in order to reinforce this idea, I would need to have something tangible to do with 'idle power' so that players don't necessarily seek to maximize their power usage.

What's 'extra energy' good for?

Thoughts pop into mind: faster recharge of beam weapons, stronger shields, what else?

Drop "weapons slot" and make instead "anything fit here" slots.

If you make weapon slots players will always put there weapons... Not that they have a choice :) And of course they will put there the best weapon possible :)

But if they have aux/fit all slots (or at least slots that have more than one purpose) they could put "all weapons get +100% accuracy" module instead of yet one more "best weapon" (MOO2 did it best IMO, I frequently ended with tons of special modules and rather few weapons, beacuse I always wanted these modules more :)).

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Drop "weapons slot" and make instead "anything fit here" slots.
If you make weapon slots players will always put there weapons... Not that they have a choice And of course they will put there the best weapon possible

But if they have aux/fit all slots (or at least slots that have more than one purpose) they could put "all weapons get +100% accuracy" module instead of yet one more "best weapon" (MOO2 did it best IMO, I frequently ended with tons of special modules and rather few weapons, beacuse I always wanted these modules more ).

Actually, I feel I have surpassed the utility slot approach with my current design (took me only 5 years, but I got a stroke of luck/genius to make it *feel* right).

And if anything, a "anything fit here" slot would probably have the opposite effect, and allow users to put even more weapons, foregoing things as critical as shields and sensors in the process to make these "kaboom" ships. That would be "one step forward, two steps back for me".

One interesting you bring forward is, once again, the need for actual components/modules to be interesting and provide actual meaningful choice. Most 4X games fail there. Complication for me is to make weapons more "useful" in niche situations, and less broad-spectrum capable.


And if anything, a "anything fit here" slot would probably have the opposite effect, and allow users to put even more weapons, foregoing things as critical as shields and sensors in the process to make these "kaboom" ships.
That's the key issue here. In *ALL* games with slots I have ever seen (OK, except Endless Space but it's a game far from standard) the player first go for all weapons they can fit and then fill the rest (slots where placing weapons is illegal) with some specialized modules.

I strongly feel it should be the other way round. Allow ANY number of weapons to be installed, without any limits at all. And make limited slots for special stuff. Make the special stuff more desirable than weapons of course.

I mean, you kind of approach it from the wrong side, starting with the assumption that 100% weapons ship is the best and thinking of a way to limit this strategy. It's not fixing the inherited flaw (weapons desirability). Instead weapons should be heavily nerfed and/or special modules should be significantly boosted.

Which can be done quite easily, make a module like "all weapons deal x2 damage" and then you won't see players putting only weapons ever again :)


One interesting you bring forward is, once again, the need for actual components/modules to be interesting and provide actual meaningful choice.
This also fixes the meaningful choice issue, since special modules are more interesting than weapons (which almost always could be reduced to utterly boring and trivial to compare "DPS" anyway).

Forget the weapons, these are standard and all just do damage and you can't think much fun/originial stuff here. Instead go for aux modules.

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