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Scotland independence: Yes or No?

Started by September 16, 2014 04:44 PM
47 comments, last by BHXSpecter 10 years, 1 month ago

I'm surprised I don't see a lounge topic on this already.

So two polling questions, one set for locals who get a referendum vote and another for everybody else.

I'm most interested in hearing from those actually living in Scotland and who actually get to vote. How do you feel about it? If yes, why? If no, why not?

The referendum discussion has been going on for some time. I'm in another continent living 7500 km away and still see it in the news. I've read discussions about assorted viewpoints and concerns: How will the budget work, how will healthcare work, how will currency work, how will taxes work, how will the oil revenues work, even discussion about how BBC will be affected by a potential split.

I can certainly understand the desire for more local control of government services. It is a refrain we always hear. Local control is often better attuned to local needs, so results tend to be better. Yet national issues are expensive, and there are collective benefits. A nation of 5M breaking off from a nation of 64M, well, that's not a particularly large nation either by size or by population.

For those in the region, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Well I'm a Scot and I vote no, too many topics to discuss here such as economy, monarchy, tax, oil, but I feel that salmond's motivations are not honorable or statesman like. It's like a game to him. He's playing every self pity card he can, I believe. What his true motivations are who would know, he talks about bannockburn but he doesn't mention that many scottish nobles owned a lot of land in england at the time. He probably believes in robert the bruce but he wasn't even a scot. He may talk about hadrian's wall but unfortunately us scots jumped over the wall also and weren't always too polite to our english neighbours. He's says he hates the tories, what about winston churchill, he took us through wwii. He hates thatcher, she was a woman living in incredibly sexist times where woman had to work and prove themselves many times more than men to be accepted in the workplace, he talks about the poll tax, we had riots and it was changed to council tax, governments make mistakes too. He inspires rent-a-mobs. His figures don't add up according to many top economists, he bases quite a lot of gdp on the price of a barrel of oil, over $113 then ok, under then in deficit. He disputes the recoverable oil in the north sea, he says 24 billion barrels, sir ian wood, 16 billion. And on and on. I am not saying it's all bad however or that scotland shouldn't ever be independent but we are hardly a persecuted nation. Far from it.

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I'm no Scot, but I come from a place that has sought to make independence since the very inception of their country.

In late 1990s, I realized that whatever reasons they had to secede disappeared along with previous generations.

Nowadays, I feel that people clinging to independence are more concerned with showcasing their cultural differences (which is perfectly fine and even desirable) than actually delving into politics. More often than not, supporters are culturally-invested individuals, not economists and lawyers per se.

I imagine (and I could definitely be wrong) that Scots also cling to their cultural differences (there's no doubt Scots are drastically different from Englishmen) but that there is very little that independence could bring them they otherwise could not acquire through legal means and recognition at this point. I know the PAST leaves a stigmata (and it does for Jews and many other nations), but clinging to a past conflict that affected individuals that are all dead and gone is refusing to move forward.

Also, it feels odd that in an age where nations regroup (EU), some would secede... It probably fits better my Utopian sci-fi esque vision of the future where governments can claim ownership/administration duty over one planet. Up to the last century, our unit was a "continent", which we sought to control/fragment, etc. Now that space is opened wide, it seems the "unit" is now a planet as it represents a non-arbitrarily determined territory.

o-GROUNDSKEEPER-WILLIE-SCOTTISH-INDEPEND

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He hates thatcher

A lot of us hate Thatcher, her gender is irrelevant.

As an Englishman I don't think Scotland should go independent, and would be among the majority of people who don't want to prop Scotlands economy up (currency union) nor will back membership into the European Union if they attempt to refuse to pay back debts amassed during their time in the United Kingdom (and their borrowing power as a state would be mocked). They can't afford to join the Eurozone so will likely end up continuing to use the pound without the backing of the bank of england.

Looking at the terms Alex Salmond and the SNP proposes, they want independence without the risks that come from being an independent state.

Not a Scot here. I am not really informed on the whole matter so I chose "I don't care" although "I don't know" would have described it better.

I really don't know much about the political system there but I am a strong advocate for subsidiarity.

And while I think a complete independence might have unforeseeable consequences, in the case of a NO vote there should still be concessions made.

Maybe a "free state of Scotland" within the UK with more powers on the local level.

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I'll come to the question at hand but first I wanted to reply to this...

I imagine (and I could definitely be wrong) that Scots also cling to their cultural differences (there's no doubt Scots are drastically different from Englishmen)


This is more complicated that is seems; parts of Scotland are very different to each other, much like parts of England are very different (I'd wager for those outside the UK surprisingly so), with some areas closer to England than you might think and deep divisions in the country as a whole.

For a place smaller than most US states we are a diverse lot over here smile.png

I know the PAST leaves a stigmata, but clinging to a past conflict that affected individuals that are all dead and gone is refusing to move forward.


That's the thing, there is no 'past conflict' here as such. The Kingdom Of England did not invade or conquer the Kingdom of Scotland, we fought each other often but back then that was practically a European hobby to kick off a fight with another country. The union came about in two stages; first by the death of Queen Elizabeth The First of England which gave the throne to James VI of Scotland, James 1st of England, bring a 'personal union' and easing of tension and then, secondly, by a disastrous attempt by the Company Of Scotland to establish a colony in Panama in 1698 which was funded by Scotland (to the tune of a quarter of her liquid assets) and ultimately nearly broke the country which allowed the Act Of Union in 1707 to take place.

It was a political union which has benefited both countries over the years.

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As to the issue at hand, I do not believe that the time is right to dissolve the union; the world wide conditions do no favour a new country and the associated costs of separation (which would probably take more than a year) make it all the more risky. That said ultimately it is up to the Scots to decide.

The problem is they are being persuaded to vote 'yes' not under a banner of 'lies' as such but under a banner of wishful thinking, assumptions and The Tories Are Bad! which isn't the best platform but this is, for many people, not an issue of head but of heart, particularly where the Tory party are concerned.

However, even putting aside the Tory issue there are still significant points where the answer to questions are 'of course this will happen' with either no proof or basis in reality.

- Automatic entry into the EU.
While no one has said they will block it Scotland will have to apply once she is an independent country (despite what is said there is no legal or other structure in place to allow them to negotiate for entry until such time as they are independent) and countries like Spain have already stated they won't make it easy due to their own internal regions wanting to break away.

Related to that is the various concessions, rebates and other things the UK has negotiated for herself over the years, none of which Scotland will automatically get and, more than likely, none of which will be granted to her either.

- Currency Union
Again an assumption that they will be able to use the UK Pound ("of course we'll use the Pound") despite the UK Government stating they won't be able to and, even if they do go back on that, the Bank Of England will be bound to do what is right for the UK Economy not the Scottish one, so if the two get out of step then Scotland will suffer with no say in the matter. Scotland's economy will be, for all intents and purposes, controlled by Westminster and the UK economy making a bit of a mockery of the whole thing.

Further problems are considered when it was stated that, upon achieving independency the plan was to take out a massive loan to fund running the country something which would be restricted by not controlling their currency.

EU entry could be a problem too, depending on how others feel, as entry now (iirc) requires member states to adopt the Euro in a timely manner. (At one point the SNP was talking about using the Euro rather than the Pound, a position they quietly reversed more recently).

Finally, and most amusingly, is the threat of not taking any national debt if a currency union isn't granted - I find this amusing because it is effectively blackmail while accusing the other side of bullying; the irony is tasty if nothing else.

Plans to lower taxes and increase spending on things like the NHS simply don't add up regardless of how you look at things; less income and more spending doesn't work, my own bank balance shows how that plan goes.

Beyond those two issues there are assumptions about automatically taking on treaties (the assumption is they will be in NATO for example) and other more minor issues which will affect Scotland's position on the World Stage.

The final thing which annoys me about the process however is the requirement to be able to vote; if you are a Scot living in England you have no say. You'll be granted Scottish nationality if independency occurs, but because you've moved across the border you have no voice. While I appreciate that you could argue for some restrictions (the children born in England of parents both from Scotland not being allowed for example) but the fact that people who might have only moved for work a couple of years ago have no voice is just wrong imo.
(I'm also not convinced about extending the vote to those aged 16 and 17; while I'm sure some will understand the issues comments I've heard about 'voting yes because they have a more positive message' speak volumes of the problem with engaging people of that age - hell, at 16 I wasn't in a good state of mind to vote but if I had at least I would have had better reasons than that.)

The only thing for certain, based on the polls, is that after Thursday there is going to be an almost 50/50 rift in Scotland between those who won and those who lost, regardless of the outcome, and that alone will cause a great deal of harm.

Maybe a "free state of Scotland" within the UK with more powers on the local level.


This has, and continues to happen, powers have been passed to a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh Assembly and more powers are continued to be granted as time goes on - Scotland can set taxes and control national health spending for example.

We do have an amusing/frustrating situation where English MPs have no say in Scotland but because we don't have an English Parliament the Scotish MPs have an impact south of the border. However as calls for an English Parliament are rejected this simply remains an annoying issue rather than one something can be done about.

I think that voting to secede would only prove that they shouldn't. After all, there's nothing more English than hating the English.

If you want a quick overview, John Oliver sums it up reasonably well.

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IMO, ideologically I support Scottish independence; practically, I think it would be a struggle.


After all, there's nothing more English than hating the English.


Typical bloody English. The Irish, Welsh, Australians, Kiwis were hating the English before it was cool tongue.png
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

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