Hey guys,

I feel like game companies now days are starting to focus less and less on a good Co-Op game. Is it possible to have a captivating story line and Co-Op multiplayer? Or do you sacrifice being able to make a character/player bond for Multiple players. Is a game like borderlands the way to go? Simple artwork and story line but enjoyable enough to entertain or a captivating Co-Op adventure with Rpg elements?

Thanks -Ethan Leslie

www.Rev6Studios.com

Personally I see a few Co-Op games, but most of them tend to make bad decisions on how to make the story work while either playing alone or playing with someone.

in some cases they find a quite good balance between Co-Op and Single player being on the same story but this usually is rare to find. Either they make Co-Op to intrusive or they split the Co-Op too much that you barely notice that you are playing with another person. There is also the fact of single player where the AI might be "dumb as bread" and is completely useless or doesn't even partake in lets say 'boss' fights in a meaningful way.

There is one workaround which would make it work flawlessly and that is having two separate storylines one made for multiple people and one made for one person although this would probably increase development time quite noticably and thus not valued from a company's perspective.

Another issue in some Co-Op games is the Co-Op campaign where the story, rarely give the same immersion as a single player story would, even more noticed is tendencies to being too simple or overly complex making you feel like, "ahh, god I have to help my friend ontop of this ledge again to make him open the door for me" every other 5 minutes.

Personally I see a few Co-Op games, but most of them tend to make bad decisions on how to make the story work while either playing alone or playing with someone.

in some cases they find a quite good balance between Co-Op and Single player being on the same story but this usually is rare to find. Either they make Co-Op to intrusive or they split the Co-Op too much that you barely notice that you are playing with another person. There is also the fact of single player where the AI might be "dumb as bread" and is completely useless or doesn't even partake in lets say 'boss' fights in a meaningful way.

There is one workaround which would make it work flawlessly and that is having two separate storylines one made for multiple people and one made for one person although this would probably increase development time quite noticably and thus not valued from a company's perspective.

Another issue in some Co-Op games is the Co-Op campaign where the story, rarely give the same immersion as a single player story would, even more noticed is tendencies to being too simple or overly complex making you feel like, "ahh, god I have to help my friend ontop of this ledge again to make him open the door for me" every other 5 minutes.

I couldn't agree more.There have been few games that I can recall that have had Great Co-Op experiences. Most of the time you are playing as just an entity and have no real impact on the game. Did you try Beyond Two Souls "Co-Op" Mode?

The Co-Op they did in Far Cry 3 wasnt too bad (I was thoroughly sick of the 'running crack monkey with ADD' gimmicky fantasy gameplay of the multiplayer pickup games for FC3 and the CoD Modern War games). Unfortunately the multi scenario campaign was still too short and Repeatitus set in after playing the same first scenario for the 40th time.

The Co-Op is even going out of the MMORPGs simply because of pickup team players falling too short of what necessary for competant play in anything interesting (come to think of it their whole games have gone that way too). People just dont have time any more (or the game isnt as captivating as they were when the concept was new)

Multiplayer dynamics make for more interesting action. But filling in the inevitable team 'gaps' with 'smart' NPCs still is far from being achieved (and if players keep paying for the current pablum, no game company is going to take the risk/expense of significant improvements in that area)

---

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him"

AND THEN BEFORE HIM STOOD A CAT IN POWER ARMOR WITH A SWORD MADE OF LIGHT WHO ROARED "YOU SHALL NOT PASS."

By Victorian times it was competing companies (politics and commercial manipulations) if not nations (which would be resolved by war/military positioning)

You might have original inhabitants who either have to be overpowered or bribed (or both) as a added element for 'costs' and possible events that shake things up (opportunities for other players)

There is no good reason to have Co-op for most games.

It's usually a combination of all the restriction of single player and multi player combined, for little to no extra added value.

The market are both solo-players and multi-players, if serving to the latter group there is no good reason to limit this to "X" players

(where X is often 2, sometimes 4, when getting to 8 it starts being a real multiplayer game)

From a player-perspective; a player wants to play with his friends, they 're not always online/available at the same time, sometimes there's only one or even no friends available, sometimes 10 want to play with you.

So from a design-perspective a games should be for many many players where players can team up with their own friends or strangers.

(or substitute with Bot-players/AI's )

There is good reason for Co-op but the story must be coop related.

A chuck Norris or Rambo one man army action story doesn't work well. Some uses like QTE are disastrous. cut scene rather not. But handy for breaks. But doing squad based mission as story's. You are a team in SP with AI teammates. In coop with players with empty slot filled with AI.

Ghost Recon Advanced Warrior. We played GRAW 1 & 2 on 3 PC in a row each PPU powered :) I got this Black hawk down movie experience. Very Cool. It made the 3th guest gamer a Xbox360 console game buy a PC. Operation Flashpoint 2 Red River. Same thing. except the cut scene NPC / actor was very irritating.

Co-op works with team based story's or plots. The problem is AI if the story demands a team even for solo play. This is a very complex problem. As a AI designer you design your AI with specific gameplay in mind. But gamers are unpredictable play as it often not meant to be played. Like hanging back get the flow out of the game. Starting a spawn wave notice. Or rushes like Rambo so aren't moving as team. get shot in the back. Hinder visa versa. Or find exploit to do things the AI can't adapt to. And often the AI get the blame. But its large the player who play it as the designer had in mind. Good AI should also address strange behavior of gamers. But also the game flow could adopt to the gamers so to the AI. Problem this is to much for a game with tight deadlines so often not done. So to me the AI works fine a bit limited. But I know I need to take a regular action flow and move the AI as team. Real gamers. well we start OFP2RR and the pure COD guy was fast to action and dead. So I said this is not COD move as team.

It would be nice if the story scales well up from solo to team you then need not to use such advance AI.

This seems subjective, do you have any data on co-op disappearing? Borderlands 2 and Wargame Airland Battle both had co-op, and are recent releases.

And Red Dragon, the Wargame sequel, will have expanded co-op. Diablo 3 is getting an expansion, and is essentially a co-op game, etc.

There is no good reason to have Co-op for most games.

It's usually a combination of all the restriction of single player and multi player combined, for little to no extra added value.

The market are both solo-players and multi-players, if serving to the latter group there is no good reason to limit this to "X" players

(where X is often 2, sometimes 4, when getting to 8 it starts being a real multiplayer game)

From a player-perspective; a player wants to play with his friends, they 're not always online/available at the same time, sometimes there's only one or even no friends available, sometimes 10 want to play with you.

So from a design-perspective a games should be for many many players where players can team up with their own friends or strangers.

(or substitute with Bot-players/AI's )

You have a very valid point and I suppose bigger game companies wont make a game if they don't feel it will sell. Unfortunately most gamers now days only like run and gun shooters or games like flappy bird -_-. I suppose if the demand were there than more companies would do it. Or if one company actually produced a Co-Op driven game maybe the market would change

There is good reason for Co-op but the story must be coop related.

A chuck Norris or Rambo one man army action story doesn't work well. Some uses like QTE are disastrous. cut scene rather not. But handy for breaks. But doing squad based mission as story's. You are a team in SP with AI teammates. In coop with players with empty slot filled with AI.

Ghost Recon Advanced Warrior. We played GRAW 1 & 2 on 3 PC in a row each PPU powered I got this Black hawk down movie experience. Very Cool. It made the 3th guest gamer a Xbox360 console game buy a PC. Operation Flashpoint 2 Red River. Same thing. except the cut scene NPC / actor was very irritating.

Co-op works with team based story's or plots. The problem is AI if the story demands a team even for solo play. This is a very complex problem. As a AI designer you design your AI with specific gameplay in mind. But gamers are unpredictable play as it often not meant to be played. Like hanging back get the flow out of the game. Starting a spawn wave notice. Or rushes like Rambo so aren't moving as team. get shot in the back. Hinder visa versa. Or find exploit to do things the AI can't adapt to. And often the AI get the blame. But its large the player who play it as the designer had in mind. Good AI should also address strange behavior of gamers. But also the game flow could adopt to the gamers so to the AI. Problem this is to much for a game with tight deadlines so often not done. So to me the AI works fine a bit limited. But I know I need to take a regular action flow and move the AI as team. Real gamers. well we start OFP2RR and the pure COD guy was fast to action and dead. So I said this is not COD move as team.

It would be nice if the story scales well up from solo to team you then need not to use such advance AI.

Could you do a storyline that was single player driven based off each character and you are only offered certain missions if that character were playing with you in a Co-Op game. Essentially Taking out the horrible AI that Co-Op games are usually faced with? If not that could there be a way to make an AI system that somewhat learned based off a players actions. Say you are playing with a bot Co-Op person, well based on what you did last mission it knows you are most likely going to do the same things and kind of adapts? Haha I suppose that is getting rather closer to actually AI isn't it? Sigh Wishful thinking at it's best.

This seems subjective, do you have any data on co-op disappearing? Borderlands 2 and Wargame Airland Battle both had co-op, and are recent releases.

And Red Dragon, the Wargame sequel, will have expanded co-op. Diablo 3 is getting an expansion, and is essentially a co-op game, etc.

It absolutely is Subjective. Borderlands and diablo 3 are Co-Op games but the storyline is rather dry and doesnt really change if you play it single player or Co-Op. It was a broad generalization however I feel like bigger companies are just focused on money now days and don't want to appeal to Co-Op fans because it isn't as profitable. I could be wrong. but a truly captivating Co-Op game that ran smoothly just hasn't happened. If it has it has been years since it did.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him"
AND THEN BEFORE HIM STOOD A CAT IN POWER ARMOR WITH A SWORD MADE OF LIGHT WHO ROARED "YOU SHALL NOT PASS."

Love It, haha It is the "logo/moto" of the game company I just started.