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Original post by Maximus
David_Kay: Would you rather that, instead of someone telling him that his dream wont become a reality, that he attempts it, gets confused as to why its so hard, gets angry at things not working, gives up... etc, etc.

People that take on such a huge project like this are either serious (in which case they pay their employees, have offices, etc), or are people that dont understand what they are getting themselves into.

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Who says his dream wont become a reality? I didn't see him state that he is trying to make the next EverQuest or UO. It is highly do-able to make a MMORPG. Might take him a long time if doing alone (which I highly doubt) but doesn't mean that his project wont get done.

Everyone runs into problems with their code where they get upset / angry but that is when you can tell how devoted and how much drive you have to learn and excel past the problem, and seek help, .. funny, that is what I thought these boards were for but apprently they are just to bash eachother.

Edited by - David_Kay on November 4, 2001 5:05:29 AM

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Original post by scubabbl
Unbeleivable. This is a shame on the community and a mark against humans in general.

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You''re obviously one of those misguided individuals who believes humans are "generally good." ha! Humans are fucked up - deal with it.

This is not a comment on any of your other statements (I didn''t read the post; it was too long for me).

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Original post by Daishi
As for graduating with honors or having a degree in programming to be any good at it. Look at Microsoft''s staff, I don''t think I need to go any further, as my point is pretty obvious.

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Actually, you have no point. You say nothing and you mean nothing. There are some unbelievably brilliant people on Microsoft''s staff, and their products reflect it. You may not think so, buying in into the general rhetoric of Windows instability, but when you consider the complexities of maintaining a backwards-compatible operating system structure, interfaces that are scalable to support an infinite number and variety of devices (some of which have not even been dreamt of yet), and all this in less than 20 years... UNIX is over 30 years old and is still being patched (for comparison).

Add to that an ability for management to say "we were wrong" and completely about-face their strategy (with regard to the internet, DirectX, etc) and you have a fascinating company.

I''m sorry. I just happen to be feeling really cranky.

I wanna work for Microsoft!

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A degree doesn''t mean to much really. It just means you can do work. Thats about it. People can learn things on their own you know. Alot of things, without the need for college. Not that it doesn''t help, but, if you were to interview two people, one with a degree, and one without, and the one with the degree was a jackass, but the one without proved extremely competent, which would you hire? Certainly not the one with the degree.

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I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?
(most jackasses tend not to show what they are during job interviews). If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.

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It''s just like a Military leader who thinks he can lead just because he has power and authority. In fact, you need no power or authority to lead, you just have to be a leader and a motivator. It''s not something you are born with, but something you learn, and not something you learn through any formal education.

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Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??

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Instead of trashing someone, step up and give them a pat on the back and tell them good luck. Negativity does nothing for anyone, ANYONE. So WHY propigate this negativity, thus creating a world that is no better off, and more likely, worse off than before you came along? What is the issue?

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A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!

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Original post by JFS
I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?

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Actually, I don''t think most employers would even interview the guy without the degree, assuming they had enough degree-holders applying for the job.

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If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.

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I don''t remember taking any "social skills" classes when I was getting my CS degree. And I learned cooperating in kindergarten. I know, I know, you mean writing clean code with nice comments; but believe it or not, you can make yourself do that regardless of education, and I also know some degree-holders who don''t do it right. Having the professor say, "Make sure you leave plenty of white space, and comment thoroughly," does not automatically make everyone in the class keep the good habit after they are done with the class.

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Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??

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I will not comment on the army in this forum; nothing I said would be relevant to games.

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A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!

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You apparently didn''t read all the posts here. A few of the people said it would be hard, and not likely to be finished (which could be construed as "opening eyes to complexity"). But, most of them just said things like "ridiculous" or told him how he couldn''t afford it or couldn''t do it without Microsoft backing and professional programmers. They never said anything like, "You could do it, but it would take this." They said outright, "You can''t afford it. You can''t program that well." Those people are the ignorant ones scubabbl was talking about.

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Original post by JFS

I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?
(most jackasses tend not to show what they are during job interviews). If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.

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Of course, thats true.

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Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??

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I was also in the Army Infantry. I spent 4 years and 17 weeks in. I went in as an E-2, and in 3 years, I was an E-5. PLDC taught me how to fill out forms and thats about it. The skills you need to be a leader comes from observing and informal teachings, not from any formal education. Power and authority are only helpful when dealing with people who are the same rank as you or higher. To deal with the troops you are going to lead (Joe E-4 and below), you just have to show you know what your doing, which, once again, comes from experience, practice, and general learned job knowledge, none of which comes from ANY formal school. Military leadership schools teach you alot of red tape, not much else. If you need power and authority to lead, then your not a leader.. then all the more shame on you (you in general, not you specifically, I don''t know anything about you).. or anyone else who does that.

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A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!

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No, I don''t consider something like, "Hey, I''ve been in this job for a while, and Im going to be honest with you, the task your taking is going to be very hard. Stay dedicated atleast, and don''t get to down if things don''t go your way..." negative,

But "That''s ridiculous" is way negative.


By the way, what do you do in the Army? Are you regular or nasty guard?

-Jason

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Original post by Oluseyi
against humans in general.

You''re obviously one of those misguided individuals who believes humans are "generally good." ha! Humans are fucked up - deal with it.

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Of course they are fucked up, but why? I believe humans are generally assholes to the infinate degree, but, only because they are to weak to do anything for themselves. All you have to do is look at yourself and say, "Im a fucker.. but not any more". Change is the easiest thing in the world to do, that''s why your weak if you can''t. Anyone who say''s "Thats the way we are, so deal with it" instead of "That''s the way we are, but we can improve if we try" is a big wanker in my book.

The problem is we care to much. That is, we care to much about what other motherfuckers are doing then feel jelous because we can''t/didn''t do that, or they say, I failed to do it, so every other fucker should too. That''s the weakest… weakest attitude in the world, but the problem is, that''s the attitude most people have. Instead of people learning any god damn thing, they just pass it on from generation to generation.

I''ll be damned if Im going to pass on an cynical weak minded viewpoints to anyone. The sooner people relize they are being stupid, the better off everyone will be.

If you are the type of negative person I described above, you.. are a jackass. What''s worse, is someone is going to read this, and instead of saying, that''s true, I am a jackass and thats fucked up so Ill try to do better, they will just say, man, fuck this guy, what a dick, because I made them feel bad, because the truth fucking hurts.

-Jason

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Original post by Anonymous Poster
Of course they are fucked up, but why? I believe humans are generally assholes to the infinate degree, but, only because they are to weak to do anything for themselves. All you have to do is look at yourself and say, "Im a fucker.. but not any more". Change is the easiest thing in the world to do, that''s why your weak if you can''t. Anyone who say''s "Thats the way we are, so deal with it" instead of "That''s the way we are, but we can improve if we try" is a big wanker in my book.

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Fascinating. Very few people are even willing to accept the notion that we aren''t born as beacons of "purity and light," corrupted by the cynicism of a polluted world. I give you credit for that.

I believe the cardinal human motivation is selfishness, and the cardinal human deterrent is fear. We don''t do things we know to be wrong because we fear the retribution (punishment). We don''t attempt things we think we might be able to do (and discourage others) because we fear failure. And so on.

Makes you rethink that saying, "we have nothing else to fear but fear itself," huh?

I respect people who conquer their fears. I respect people who try, or die trying, rather then giving up because its going to be hard. I''ll never tell someone not to give it a try (so amesis, go for it!) but be smart.

Anyways, humans are fucked up. Do they have to stay that way? No. But if they choose to, then they''re especially fucked up.

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I wanna work for Microsoft!

Original post by Oluseyi

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Original post by Anonymous Poster
Of course they are fucked up, but why? I believe humans are generally assholes to the infinate degree, but, only because they are to weak to do anything for themselves.

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Oops, I posted annon on that. Forgot to log in.

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Anyways, humans are fucked up. Do they have to stay that way? No. But if they choose to, then they''re especially fucked up.

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HAHA! That''s the truth in the most simple of terms there. Especially fucked up.. ha.. that made laugh. Tooo funny.

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I wanna work for Microsoft!

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My friend works for Microsoft. That company rocks. Retarded people give them such bad press, expecially people in the press, because they are idiots and don''t know anything.

My favorite is one writer for zdnet I think it was.. anyway, he wrote an article about how he TOTALLY hated one part of Windows XP, and how the OS wasn''t going to be released for 3 more weeks so, they had time to change it, and they should, because the way they had it was totally fucked. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows you don''t going changing around your code right before you ship, expecially when it was gold in august and was ust being prited up for release.. meaning ITS BEEN FINISHED FOR 2 MONTHS.. you would think the people who wrote about software would have some clue about how things work.


-Jason

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Original post by scubabbl
My friend works for Microsoft. That company rocks. Retarded people give them such bad press, expecially people in the press, because they are idiots and don''t know anything.

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I find a lot of people to be generally ignorant, especially the press (not only with regard to technology, but it''s special the way they misinterpret tech issues). I''m sick of the rhetoric (hence the .sig); you should see the comments some idiots are making about the XBox in this thread...

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I wanna work for Microsoft!

I definitely agree with you, scubabbl. Sorry if I was unfriendly in my last post. Yes, "ridiculous" is definitely not a polite nor helpful answer but I still think Maximus made some valid points on the financial issues. However, I think we might just have different conception of what a "formal" education is. I regard all army training as formal education and I certainly learned a lot from it. I was in the swedish army and I know for a fact it is very different from the american (you''re from the US right?).
>> Military leadership schools teach you alot of red tape, not much else <<
This is simply not true where I come from.
Anyway, its off-topic, so let''s drop it.

I just have to comment on the anon answer though:

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I don''t remember taking any "social skills" classes when I was getting my CS degree. And I learned cooperating in kindergarten. I know, I know, you mean writing clean code with nice comments; but believe it or not, you can make yourself do that regardless of education, and I also know some degree-holders who don''t do it right. Having the professor say, "Make sure you leave plenty of white space, and comment thoroughly," does not automatically make everyone in the class keep the good habit after they are done with the class.

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Oh, you learned cooperating in kindergarten. Amazing. Do you use your playground coop skills still when at work? No? It''s an ever evolving skill depending on personality and experience. Join the army and you''ll have the concept redefined. Change workplace, move abroad or whatever and your skill set will continually increase. It''s a much deeper subject than it sounds and I was actually not at all talking about clean code with comments or anything. That''s just details.
Coop skills and social skills are very much alike and the reason I brought it up was because attending university is basically one long social skills course and employers know this.