So I've been writing down ideas for an RPG game with a leveling system, and I wanted to get some input on here about where my thoughts are going. This is in no way finished, nor is everything I list going to be used; this is just a rough draft of some ideas I threw together.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT AN MMORPG type game; this is for single-player, or servers that friends can play together on, like Minecraft or Cubeworld (players set up the server).

So far, I'll have a leveling system that grows in difficulty by some exponential amount. At certain levels, the player will receive different bonuses and/or items. Quests in the game will help leading people into certain roles (like an intro to ____ quest), help raise certain stats, and so on.

Some stats, like luck, would obviously require some balancing; therefore it might have a steeper leveling curve, or it's maximal increased output is capped. As for how fast one gains levels, and how fast one gains bonuses, followers, items, etc. will be balanced on implementation. Some other implementation details might be that certain things (recipes for food, crops, etc) might require certain levels and experience to handle. Maybe even unlocking certain attributes once doing a tutorial or reaching a certain overall level.

Here's a list of some of the attributes a player can level up (some have descriptions, as they might not be so straightforward):

[overall level]

[cooking] - when making food, the higher this level is can make the health heal more health, hunger, and saturation. Saturation is how long the food lasts before hunger begins to drop again; it also can define the speed at which the hunger drops for a little while after hunger begins.

[attack (melee)]

[attack (ranged)] --might want to combine ranged and melee

[defense (melee)]

[defense (ranged)]

[aim] - aiming, for ranged is straightforward. Players and NPC's will have "weak-spots", and aim heightens the chance of hitting weak spots. Also, aim will, with higher levels, shave off the "randomness" of a ranged attack.

[mining/digging] - when mining, luck for drops and the speed of mining can increase with level. Certain levels are needed to use certain tools.

[agility]

[endurance] --mainly these are for traveling and how fast the hunger bar drops and how hunger effects speed.

[farming]

[building] - buildings, cities, etc. More of a contractor type of job. There is building in the game, as it is destructible terrain.

[engineer] - electrical and mechanical components (when these tiers are reached).

[banker] - you get bonuses for saving money / making large sums of money. Raises chances of NPC's trading and buying/selling to you. Good for bartering as well (not so sure about this one....)

[chemistry/alchemy] - mainly for potions, but I hope to also have chemicals useful for other things as well...not sure exactly what yet.

[stealth/thievery] - sneaking, stealing, hiding, etc.

[blacksmith]

[research] - somewhat for finding about new tiers; using raw materials is fine, but things like steel, electricity, and such require research, possibly? Maybe even tackling a really difficult (read: much higher than challenging) dungeon might open up research on new, harder and durable metals, or certain chemical recipes for medicine. Reward for adventure and exploration!

[luck] - just plain, sheer luck. Players gain exp for luck when they get a bonus for something (more minerals in a dig, etc).

[trust] - NPC's trust in the player. The game will allow the player to hire NPC's for stuff, and with high enough trust, a player can even create kingdoms!

other stuff:

-sword, shield, bow, mace, double-wielding, etc. for different weapons.

-something for clothing, leather, etc.

What do you all think about this? Any criticism, words of wisdom, things you like....? I'm currently implementing the system, but I have such a huge list of attributes I thought I'd ask around of what people think about these so far (the ones I like quite a bit are listed here).

I've been writing down ideas for an RPG game with a leveling system ... What do you all think about this? Any criticism, words of wisdom, things you like....?

Put one button in the middle of the screen that says "level up." Pressing that button will make it shower sparkly things and a big "LEVEL UP" ding. Go on, imagine pressing it. How many times did you press that button? More than once, yeah? I did. I pushed it maybe three or four times, before Crusty the Clown came out on stage, honked his sqeak toy horn, and unrolled a big sign saying 'BORED,' and then waddled off stage. Waddle waddle. The gum just loses it's flavor on the bed post overnight.

If it offers some additional benefit, then there can be some more button pushing. Maybe it'll rain apples and strawberries if you get to level five. Are you curious now? Who knows, maybe a little pixie girl will come out and do a little dance at level 10... The carrot of mystery. But opening that box becomes predictable after a while, doesn't it? Pretty soon the player understands what's behind door #3.

So there's gotta be some kinda value to it, some sort of motivation to level up.

So there's gotta be some kinda value to it, some sort of motivation to level up.

There's motivation right here (probably should have posted this too): The enemies study you. They have huge amounts of foot soldiers, so they throw them at you, trying different strategies and weaknesses. You start out with nothing but a simple weapon of choice. You do not have the means of survival on you; you need to find it, learn it. NPC's are not of your race; at least, not in the area you are in -- they do not trust you. You came here to...who knows? this part of WHY you are here can be fleshed out, I just don't want to reveal it yet.

The main reason for a leveling system is to learn how to survive. You get your player to learn how to survive, picking up certain skills, ignoring other skills, and the player will end up being able to contribute to society in a unique way, once they build up trust with surrounding communities. You also need to fight, because if you don't, you die. The enemies will learn your tactics, so you need to change your tactics and adapt to your opponents adaptation.

Certain materials, certain bosses and quests, will take you to certain areas; and to do certain things, you might need to be proficient in a certain field. No one can learn how to understand chemistry or use electro-magnetism before going through the basics. The core aspects of the game is learning, discovery/exploration, and adaptation, with a little building and other creative aspects that aren't CORE gameplay, but fun nonetheless. It might not be the fastest paced as most will like, but with a little time and effort, things pay off. Balancing will remove most of the "grindiness".

Mainly, I wanted a way to structure how players go through with gaining certain things in the game. I want them to follow certain paths (a crude example would be wood->stone->metal->etc) but they can still choose the type of path. They can be an archer, or a builder, or a king or a villain; it's all up to the player's choice. The game will also be heavily procedurally based (read: open worlds, each world is unique and caters to the player's choices), so something like a leveling system can also help shape how the game/world reacts to the player. With the game/world reacting to the player, the "end goal" or "final boss" or whatever you want it to be will end up being unique as well -- certain attributes will be the same overall, of course, but the boss or end goal can also cater to what the player is striving towards.

I hope that may have made things a little clearer...sorry for the wall of text!!

I have seen three main systems for leveling in rpg type systems, the class level system and the skill level system and a hybrid system.

In the class level system a character gains a level after completing a series of quest or just after so much experience is earned. They then
gain access to the next level in thier class which includes stat, power and or skill bumps. This type of system is "on rails" and does not allow the player to pick skills to level and it may also auto level skills and powers.

In the skill based system experience is gained with the usage of skills. The more you mine ore, the better a miner you are. New skills are either unlocked once you gain a certain amount of skill expertise in a parent skill. so becoming a blacksmith may require some level of mining. A class level may or may not be present.

The hybrid makes use of both systems with the use of skill points awarded on a class level. The points are then used to buy skill levels which sometimes have a varied cost as well as a prerequist skill, attribute or both. Skills can also be limited by class and/or simply cost more for the class to acquire. For example a fighter may have access to spells but the cost should be more expensive, or you may not allow a fighter to have access to spells at all.

These rules are of course yours to decide on. If you want you can look at the leveling and skills rules I have in my system Red Ash. you may also want to look at my class design rules. Red Ash is still under development but is fairly fleshed out and itsalso in the creative commons.

The image I have in my head is sort of a hybrid of Ultima VII, Civilization, and Minecraft. Something of a survival and combat focused, open-world, action RPG, but later in the game, it shifts more to an empire-building sim. Am I close, at all?

It seems like it would be necessary to, at some point, limit the amount of skill they can have.

With such an expansive amount of attributes, you'd need an equally expansive amount of player actions. For instance, If i have cooking, building, and agility leveled up, how does that make me unique and help me in the game?

If you are thinking there are 'premade' best choices, then why even give the player the choice of collecting many different choices.

Most games fail because having a non-maxed out stat becomes worthless. The player can make level 2 potions that heal for 100 hp, but they have 10,000 hp and take 1000 a hit. This means that having the ability to make level 2 potions is pointless, so you are forced to put those points instead, into your hp

The image I have in my head is sort of a hybrid of Ultima VII, Civilization, and Minecraft. Something of a survival and combat focused, open-world, action RPG, but later in the game, it shifts more to an empire-building sim. Am I close, at all?

You are sorta getting there! That's.....i guess that's a good way to put it. :D I try to avoid references myself, since I'm currently juggling many different ideas for now. But all of those are inspiration I'd say :)

It seems like it would be necessary to, at some point, limit the amount of skill they can have.

With such an expansive amount of attributes, you'd need an equally expansive amount of player actions. For instance, If i have cooking, building, and agility leveled up, how does that make me unique and help me in the game?

If you are thinking there are 'premade' best choices, then why even give the player the choice of collecting many different choices.

Most games fail because having a non-maxed out stat becomes worthless. The player can make level 2 potions that heal for 100 hp, but they have 10,000 hp and take 1000 a hit. This means that having the ability to make level 2 potions is pointless, so you are forced to put those points instead, into your hp

An exponential leveling system can take care of your first point hopefully; once they reach a certain level, say 80, that gaining levels will only boost a stat every 5 levels instead of every level because of the sheer amount of XP that is needed to get to the next stat-boosting level. Also levels *might* be capped. Say at level 100 for an attribute -- therefore they won't get too powerful.

Also, if someone chose cooking, agility, and building, they could be a contractor that can work on bigger projects, since he can get around faster than others? Haha just an idea; These aren't final yet. :) Cooking to stay alive? :P

HP was one thing I didn't want people to be able to level up. It will rise very slowly with their level, possibly, but not to a point where they start at 100 and end at 1000000000. It'll be more like they start at 100 and end at 1000. Healing cannot be done with potions; it should take time, or bandages and medicine to speed up the process, but not an instantaneous sort of heal. But then again, these are specifics, and I haven't planned every last part of this.

What I meant by chemistry and potions would be more for exploration -- water-breathing, some sort of limited flight, shrinking, etc. Also some things that could be strategic in battle, like smoke bombs or something. This game is more about strategy when it comes to fighting, even though it has a FPS feel from a first-person perspective. Players NEED to formulate a strategy for fights; either they are strikers that run in, kill, and leave to heal; or they are rangers, that try to fight from far away and avoid close combat.

What I'm trying to get at is this: I want players to have choices that create unique experiences that are still relatable between players. They can choose to be a tank but, in the end, there might be bad aspects to things too. Maybe some attributes can cancel others, to keep people away from god-like positions (for example, no tanks that are rangers and warriors that also can fly away at any moment). Maybe they also need to strategize what attributes they use -- For example, they can be a ranger but then they cannot be a tank; they can later use the tank attribute in a different fight, when they aren't a ranger. The levels don't disappear, but you are only allowed to use a certain amount in different combinations. Does that make sense? Keeping a limit to certain classes, but also allowing variety.

In the class level system a character gains a level after completing a series of quest or just after so much experience is earned.

Thanks for the information on the different types :) I want to respond particularly to this part though.

I'm trying to avoid class levels because I want players to adapt over time, as well as have more possibilities -- they can be a ranger now, and a warrior later, and then a chemist with little bombs or something. All depending on what type of fight they will be entering, or how they themselves like fighting. Though my thoughts on this are changing, just a little.....

If you have attributes increase automatically with practice, rather than having to buy points in them, then I feel like [attack (ranged)] and [aim] are a bit redundant, since shooting things would increase both.

What, exactly, does [overall level] increase. You've said it increases HP slightly, but what else?

Maybe even tackling a really difficult (read: much higher than challenging) dungeon might open up research on new, harder and durable metals, or certain chemical recipes for medicine.

Would it be possible to hire soldiers a ways into the game, and off-load the combat onto them? Because, if it is, I just know someone (probably me) is going to try to just become a scientist/alchemist/philosopher and live off the benefits. But if I have to personally fight my way to the bottom of a nigh-impossible dungeon in order to get any of the higher level tech, and I haven't been putting any points into fighting skills, it'll feel less like an adventure and more like punishment.

Actually, come to think of it, if I go down the path of building an empire, how much control do I get over my subjects?

[luck] - just plain, sheer luck. Players gain exp for luck when they get a bonus for something (more minerals in a dig, etc).

Does this mean that getting a lucky streak makes it more likely that the player will be lucky in the future?

If you have attributes increase automatically with practice, rather than having to buy points in them, then I feel like [attack (ranged)] and [aim] are a bit redundant, since shooting things would increase both.

What, exactly, does [overall level] increase. You've said it increases HP slightly, but what else?

Now that I've been mulling it over, here's what I've come up with (roughly) for how this system could work:

1) Main levels are the times when the things you've done are totaled and a certain number of EXP Attribute points (the total is derived from the main level you just reached) and are scattered about your attributes, depending on what work you did to reach that overall level. So if you spent all your time mining, all the points go to mining. If you do 60% mining, 30% fighting, and 10% cooking, then the points are distributed like that.

2) Something else I've been thinking about is maybe categorizing the attributes. Not into classes exactly, but to let the player choose what he might want to work on. So if you get 10 points towards utility (which might hold things like cooking, blacksmith, logging, farming, etc.) you can choose what you might want to level up. This idea, I feel, needs to be thought out quite a bit more, as you don't want someone cooking all the time to raise their blacksmith-ing all the way up.

EDIT: maybe this #2 part would be good for special attacks or such? So you can categorize special attacks for different melee or ranged weapons, and then when you get EXP Attribute points to spend on special attacks, you can choose which special attacks you want to upgrade that particular time.

'studentTeacher', on 10 Sept 2013 - 4:48 PM, said:

Maybe even tackling a really difficult (read: much higher than challenging) dungeon might open up research on new, harder and durable metals, or certain chemical recipes for medicine.

Would it be possible to hire soldiers a ways into the game, and off-load the combat onto them? Because, if it is, I just know someone (probably me) is going to try to just become a scientist/alchemist/philosopher and live off the benefits. But if I have to personally fight my way to the bottom of a nigh-impossible dungeon in order to get any of the higher level tech, and I haven't been putting any points into fighting skills, it'll feel less like an adventure and more like punishment.

Actually, come to think of it, if I go down the path of building an empire, how much control do I get over my subjects?

That part was more for research skipping -- if you are in the stone age, and you take and complete a dungeon that's at a diamond age, then you can gain early access to diamond, as long as you can get the materials. It's like a sort of shortcut, but not an easy one. So to address making it "near-impossible" to get to the next research/age, what I meant to say is that is more for shortcuts.

As for hiring NPC's, I feel that it might be more like until you are at some type of kingdom or empire level, you need to go into battle with your troops, if you have troops at all. And depending on where you are in the game (different areas = different levels) and where your levels are, the NPC's will play off that as well, to make sure you don't do none of the work, while not having to grind, either. Again, I think that's a balance thing. Another thing that could happen is NPC's can have a chance to keep some of the profit. Depending on their trust of you, and you not being there during the battle, they might keep some of the good stuff and give you most of the average stuff. Heck, they could even revolt, if you are truly that despicable!! But I'm getting ahead of myself ;)

As for full control in the end-game, I need to figure out the beginnings first. That's something i'll tackle after this system is set up. For now, I'm going to focus on the player, and then hire-able NPC's later.

Does this mean that getting a lucky streak makes it more likely that the player will be lucky in the future?

To use minecraft for lack of a better example coming to mind, think of level 1 in [luck] as a regular pickaxe, and level 100 as a full-fledged fortune 3 effect on the pick for the ores that need it.

overall level [/quote] Needs to have a clear meaning and effect, otherwise it's only a title nobody cares about, or at best an approximate indicator of power level.

cooking - when making food, the higher this level is can make the health heal more health, hunger, and saturation. Saturation is how long the food lasts before hunger begins to drop again; it also can define the speed at which the hunger drops for a little while after hunger begins.

Not plausible and too "mundane". Hunger management is better covered by physiological traits ("efficient digestion", "can eat rotten meat", "can digest cellulose", etc. and healing related ones like "fast regeneration"). Cooking can be a profitable and useful crafting skill. Or maybe not, depending on the game's tone and priorities.

attack (melee) attack (ranged) defense (melee) defense (ranged) aim - aiming, for ranged is straightforward. Players and NPC's will have "weak-spots", and aim heightens the chance of hitting weak spots. Also, aim will, with higher levels, shave off the "randomness" of a ranged attack.

All standard stats, except aim. Traditionally, precise aiming is subsumed into normal attack ability as an option to increase attack roll difficulty. If you want a special skill for precisely aimed attacks, adding another, opposite special skill for making all-out quick and/or powerful attacks might be a good idea (it's a meaningful axis of specialization and differentiation).

mining/digging - when mining, luck for drops and the speed of mining can increase with level. Certain levels are needed to use certain tools.

Speed might increase with skill, but not luck; searching rubble isn't exactly difficult. I wonder what sort of tools might require a qualified expert digger: even explosives can be part of universal basic training. Instead, magical digging implements could be very expensive, requiring a wealthy (presumably experienced) character.

agility endurance --mainly these are for traveling and how fast the hunger bar drops and how hunger effects speed.

You need something specific to do with them; eating rate isn't very flexible (a person needs to match calories to exertion, regardless of endurance). Endurance can be useful for forced marches or other abnormal extended efforts.

farming building - buildings, cities, etc. More of a contractor type of job. There is building in the game, as it is destructible terrain. engineer - electrical and mechanical components (when these tiers are reached).

Can these be economically competitive and fun player character jobs? If not, consider making them NPC jobs (potentially major money sinks) and/or giving a basic competence at these tasks to all PCs.

banker - you get bonuses for saving money / making large sums of money. Raises chances of NPC's trading and buying/selling to you. Good for bartering as well (not so sure about this one....)

I don't believe in making money out of thin air; limiting the skill to bargaining with NPCs should be safer.

chemistry/alchemy - mainly for potions, but I hope to also have chemicals useful for other things as well...not sure exactly what yet.

What about magic other than alchemy? Wouldn't it have its separate skills? Mundane chemistry, like farming or engineering, might be too mundane to have a role.

stealth/thievery - sneaking, stealing, hiding, etc.

A standard skill, but agility seems to have some overlap.

blacksmith

Another crafting skill. Can it be competitive with enchanted or high tech weapons? Having senior blacksmiths be the sole source of enchanted weapons might be a good trick to make blacksmiths relevant, and to force typical players to make their own weapons.

research - somewhat for finding about new tiers; using raw materials is fine, but things like steel, electricity, and such require research, possibly? Maybe even tackling a really difficult (read: much higher than challenging) dungeon might open up research on new, harder and durable metals, or certain chemical recipes for medicine. Reward for adventure and exploration!

Highly vague. How can a generic character benefit from findings and discoveries? How good are "obsolete" technologies and items when technology advances? (For example, how easily can guns catch up with magic wands of fireballs?)

luck - just plain, sheer luck. Players gain exp for luck when they get a bonus for something (more minerals in a dig, etc).

A completely meaningless stat, with no gameplay effect whatsoever. Consider instead letting players spend luck points permanently to save their characters (cheat death, succeed automatically at crucial die rolls, etc.)

trust - NPC's trust in the player. The game will allow the player to hire NPC's for stuff, and with high enough trust, a player can even create kingdoms!

As a skill or trait, it's usually called charisma. Alternatively, it might be unified with the generic "level" as a measure of fame and influence.

other stuff: -sword, shield, bow, mace, double-wielding, etc. for different weapons.

Appropriate or inappropriate depending on how much you want the players to change weapons as appropriate for the situation: a weapon type in which the player has invested (to get a high specialization bonus and an expensive high quality or enchanted weapon) can be more effective than the "right" weapon type.

-something for clothing, leather, etc.

How would this be important?