Hey folks,

This thread is the continuity of the below:

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/642498-minimal-ship-customization-in-4x-games/

The reason why I'm feeling this is worth its own thread is because I'm wondering specifically about this:

Would it be viable for a 4X game to have no ship customization whatsoever?

For example, if one was to follow specific blueprints of say, a Tie-Fighter (Star Wars), or a Galaxy Class Starship (Star Trek), the onboard armament would be rather straightforward, along with the power generator model, deflector shields, etc.

That'd work great for an RTS, but could a 4X game survive this sort of simplicity?

While I've seen great 4X games doing with very little customization (weapons and engine only, and no actual physical placement) the only 4x Games that I've seen without customization whatsoever had very few ship types and really lacked.

Provided that each ship class has a distinct feel to it, some special abilities, etc. Do you believe it could work?

Do you believe it could work?

Yes :)

Yes

Any game you could reference that have attempted and succeeded at that?

Ship management is a big part of my concept, and as much as I like making things as "simple as possible", I'm deeply worried about removing potential strategic control over this one critical game design element.

Yes

Any game you could reference that have attempted and succeeded at that?

Nope. I meant it more like "I believe it can be done" but I think customized ships will be better for 4X in almost all normal cases.

Take a look at Emperor of the Fading Suns, it had no ships customization and it would make not much sense for this game. But it's not exactly 4X and, while a cult game loved by some, it's not a really popular one.

There is nothing wrong with dropping ship customization as long as you replace it with something else to interest the player.

Birth of Federation which was a startrek next gen based 4x game had no customization you just needed to get tech levels high enough to unlocked a ship design. Also civilization is 4x and doesn't have any customization.

I'd say there are two ways you could do it.

1 - tech unlocks

• When your tech level is high enough you gain a new ship design. For example Engines 2 and Weapons 2 you can build a Tie Fighter.
• You can expend it further so that at each multiple of the base unlock unlocks the next generation so at Engines 6 and Weapons 6 you unlock Tie Fighter mark III

2 - Evolving ship designs

• You start with basic blank ships and your research automatically adds different bits to them. Research shields and your ships gain shields, research plasma cannons to add them to all your ships.
• You could even prioritize addons by research order. So fighters can only have 1 large add if I research shields first then I get shielded fighters if I research plasma cannons first then I get plasma fighters. I can't use both on fighter until I research miniaturization level 2 at which point my fighters advance to shielded plasma fighters.

Fixed ship designs can still have different crew. Associating ships with their home planet and planets with racial characteristics are two rather traditional patterns: X-Wing pilots from Tatooine could be talented but too aggressive, and X-Wing pilots from Dagobah could be slow but know special tricks.

Strategic conquest of the right planets, placement of shipyards, and breeding astronauts would replace research and ship design; do you think it would be a good thing?.

Birth of Federation which was a startrek next gen based 4x game had no customization you just needed to get tech levels high enough to unlocked a ship design. Also civilization is 4x and doesn't have any customization.



I'd say there are two ways you could do it.

1 - tech unlocks
When your tech level is high enough you gain a new ship design. For example Engines 2 and Weapons 2 you can build a Tie Fighter.
You can expend it further so that at each multiple of the base unlock unlocks the next generation so at Engines 6 and Weapons 6 you unlock Tie Fighter mark III

2 - Evolving ship designs
You start with basic blank ships and your research automatically adds different bits to them. Research shields and your ships gain shields, research plasma cannons to add them to all your ships.
You could even prioritize addons by research order. So fighters can only have 1 large add if I research shields first then I get shielded fighters if I research plasma cannons first then I get plasma fighters. I can't use both on fighter until I research miniaturization level 2 at which point my fighters advance to shielded plasma fighters.

What I don't like about this progression system is that it makes earlier ships irrelevant later down the road, or more so obsolete. Yet, in Star Wars, the Tie Fighter remains a relevant ship (fighter) within the arsenal despite the creation of a Death Star.

Fixed ship designs can still have different crew. Associating ships with their home planet and planets with racial characteristics are two rather traditional patterns: X-Wing pilots from Tatooine could be talented but too aggressive, and X-Wing pilots from Dagobah could be slow but know special tricks.

Strategic conquest of the right planets, placement of shipyards, and breeding astronauts would replace research and ship design; do you think it would be a good thing?.

I thought about that, but it would complexity demography management much further than I'm willing to allow at this stage.

I'm starting to have cold feet about this :S

What I don't like about this progression system is that it makes earlier ships irrelevant later down the road, or more so obsolete.

But that's the whole point... Making ships obsolete is fun. It gives a sense of progression, the thrill of growth.

But that's the whole point... Making ships obsolete is fun. It gives a sense of progression, the thrill of growth.

I think that's where we disagree. I'm going for strategy here, not wow. In chess, a pawn always remains relevant, so does the knight, bishop, etc. They all serve a purpose.

My reference games for this project also emulate this very well: weak scouts, that you can manage to build early in game, remain useful at the end. Even some smaller warships, with better mobility, tend to be there until the very end.

In strategy, an ambiguous choice is defined by the fact that its neither fundamentally a good or bad choice. Its really up to the player to make this choice relevant or not.

In this case, building such ship or such other ship isn't specifically a dominant strategy, its an actual choice. To make these choices relevant, it needs to correlate and support the player's plan, and hinges on the success of that plan.

It is possible that the player's plan is flawed, but in essence, all ships are 'worth building'.

While some will clearly cost more, you'll get what you've paid for, and for certain encounters, having one big ship at the right place will create an advantage: for example, the Death Star could kill a bunch of massed X-Wings, and could for this encounter by moving towards a critical planet, forcing the enemy to concentrate his forces, against his will. Since the Death Star could be made in such a way that it can really eat through numbers of light/mid ships, in this particular encounter, the Death Star would be better than the X-Wings.

Assuming however that the player chooses to let the very slow Death Star claim this planet, despite its value, and instead spreads his X-Wings to take over a dozen of loosely defended worlds at the same time. In this case, its quite possible that the X-Wing player would have gained an important economic advantage, or at least minimized the lost of his planets, and, hasn't lost a single X-Wing in the process.

The example is a bit cheesy, but you probably see what I mean by this now.

I guess that's probably why we also disagree on the research aspect of the game ;)

I'm going for strategy here, not wow. In chess, a pawn always remains relevant, so does the knight, bishop, etc. They all serve a purpose.

And that's the key "problem" :) You are not trying to make a 4X game but "space chess". I suggest to retheme/remarket your game, because if you call it 4X you will get tons of disappointed players.

To answer the first question:

If you are making space chess then yes, removal of ships customization is not only acceptable but even highly recommended, such a game would not make sense with ships designer.

If you are making 4X then removal of ships customization is tricky. Possible under some circumstances but not recommended.