@Spiro: Wouldn't living on a barren wasteland lose its luster after a few months? I mean there's nothing there. Sands and rocks. Unless you're the nature, rock-climbing type. I don't see Mars having a lot of interesting things to keep one busy or fascinated.

Yeah, living on mars within the next few decades would probably be a lot more like living in a tent in a desert, then close to anything star trek.
Except the tent would likely have more conveniences, like (realtime) internet and access to health care. And breathable air outside.
And you won't have global months long dust storms that will kill you if you go outside, and in the meantime clogs all your equipment.

I think I would be really annoyed after a few weeks with all the red dust finding its way into every crevice... Not to mention the long term health risks of breathing it.
And also very much long to see something... thats not another red rock...

You have an urge to "keep things fresh" even in Tokyo. are you really sure you wont feel this urge after a few months where-ever you might be? Those urges are usually a lot more about your personality, then it has to do with any location.
And going to Mars severely limits your options of "keeping things fresh" in the future.

It's of course very admirable to be a pioneer, and I really believe that the way forward for humanity is out into space.
I'm a bit worried though that this Dutch company is rushing things, for the sake of fame and cash.
Sending a couple of people to a tent on Mars just because you can seems a bit cruel to me.

I too think that you should start with orbital bases, get some kind of economy running, find fuel to mine, and make it feasible to shuttle people back and forth before starting to do surface bases for humans.
All of that can be done with robotic drones, without having to risk human lives just because someone wants to be famous.

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]This is a very interesting topic, Spiro, even though I don't buy that "worldwide lottery to select 40 people". It's only logical that people who are perfectly healthy and incredibly smart to be chosen first. It's easy to talk about building your own self-sufficient colony but it's harder to apply the knowledge needed to actually do it. Also, because supplies are not guaranteed, the people living inside the colony need to be extremely smart scientists to make their own materials, based on what they have available on the surface of Mars.

Build your own rocket? Com'on! NASA is still having trouble with their missiles, and they have an army or scientists. No high-speed Internet? That would not a problem for me; as long as there's still some sort of occasional communications means to Earth. I have on my hard drives thousands of books to keep me busy and will learn lots of new skills that would push away the boredom. I would also need my copy of Fallout 3 with me. After all, Mars is just a big really big wasteland. LoL!

Seriously now, a trip to Mars and the perspective of no return feel like a buzz killer to me. It would be a very dangerous thing to do... Imagine you and the other colonists would get really sick, like contracting an epidemic or something. There's no hospital around for millions of miles. What then? Also, provided that every member has a precise role in the community, if something happens to him/her, then everything goes to hell. For this very reason, I think it's important that the future colonists be trained in multiple fields of work.

[...]everyone dies, but not everyone ends up in history books. Everyone dies, but not everyone lives...

Whether or not you're going, you would have to be completely sure that this is what you really want in life and that you're ready to support the consequences of your choice. If ending in history books is your dream, then that's fine. If it's being the first human to land on Mars, it's fine again. But going to Mars because "not everyone lives" would be wrong. There are still lots of things to be done down here on Earth. You just don't know it yet.

I find the whole notion of starting up a civilization from scratch very interesting and it is something I've dreamed to do since I was a little boy, after reading Asimov's Foundation series. So, yeah, I'll definitely go! As for people who say "why don't you go live in the desert for a while", seriously? How is that similar to building a colony? The complicated relationships between people, the high-tech equipment, the undergoing science experiments... you're missing the point people!

Anyway, here's a question for you, Spiro: Why not go to the Moon first, establish a base there and gathering whatever knowledge is needed for the future pioneers of space to go live on Mars later on? Again, great topic. Thanks for that! ;)[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Build your own rocket? Com'on! NASA is still having trouble with their missiles, and they have an army or scientists.

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Rocket building/design is no longer NASA's expertise and has not been for a long time. Most of the US's rocket design experience and knowledge is now in industry, particularly at aerospace giants like Boeing and Lockheed Martin (whence came ULA, the company that currently handles the Atlas and Delta rocket families) and smaller players like Orbital and SpaceX. In fact, the only currently flying (ie. in service) US rockets are now built and flown by private industry. Last time I looked at this, it was SpaceX that was to be the launch vehicle and possibly the spacecraft contractor for Mars One, assuming the Mars One actually ends up getting something off the ground.

Why not go to the Moon first, establish a base there and gathering whatever knowledge is needed for the future pioneers of space to go live on Mars later on?[/quote]

What knowledge exactly are you proposing to get from a lunar colony that would be applicable to a Martian colony? I doubt re-purposing hardware would be effective. Lunar and Martian colonies might have superficial similarities, but the actual engineering is likely to be very different, as Luna and Mars are rather different places. Martian hardware would have to be designed to cope with an atmosphere and the periodic dust storms that happen on that planet, for one thing, while lunar hardware would have to take into account the 15-day lunar night and the lack of a protective atmosphere and magnetic field.

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]We are talking about rockets capable of covering vast distances of space, not orbital rockets. I can't recal the last time when private contractors have sent a rocket to the Moon. Do you? [/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]As for what we can learn about living on the Moon, well... living is space of course. The harsh conditions, the obstacles the colonists might face down there, how to create a long-term self-sustaining environment. Yes, I know we have the ISS, but I think that living on the surface of a planet/moon is going to be very different. Also, if missions to the Moon were successful, then we gain the confidence that we need; then we know we can do this, we are motivated towards embarking on what can be a one-way trip. [/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Anyway, the Moon is closer. Embarking head forward on a journey toward Mars feels to me a little bit like Sunshine - a desparate attempt that has slim chances of success. I'm just saying; I would still go to the Mars if given the opportunity... [/font]

@Spiro: Wouldn't living on a barren wasteland lose its luster after a few months? I mean there's nothing there. Sands and rocks. Unless you're the nature, rock-climbing type. I don't see Mars having a lot of interesting things to keep one busy or fascinated.

The struggle for survival and building the foundation for future colonists are what make it interesting. The scenery, red skies, 2 moons, and gravity will lengthen my interest in the place but will eventually lose luster. But every 2 years new people will come. That keeps it more interesting, and who knows what discoveries are to be made.
There are also many other things to do to keep myself entertained. My mother praised my ability to find ways to entertain myself as a child. But who knows. That is why we train in the desert for months at a time.

Yeah, living on mars within the next few decades would probably be a lot more like living in a tent in a desert, then close to anything star trek.
Except the tent would likely have more conveniences, like (realtime) internet and access to health care. And breathable air outside.
And you won't have global months long dust storms that will kill you if you go outside, and in the meantime clogs all your equipment.

Just because it is nothing like Star Trek does not make it less appealing to me. After all I am quite happy in Tokyo so far. It isn’t about the amenities of life, it is about living on a new world.

You have an urge to "keep things fresh" even in Tokyo. are you really sure you wont feel this urge after a few months where-ever you might be? Those urges are usually a lot more about your personality, then it has to do with any location.
And going to Mars severely limits your options of "keeping things fresh" in the future.

We will see on the training missions, although living in the desert does not have the same appeal as living on a new world.

I too think that you should start with orbital bases, get some kind of economy running, find fuel to mine, and make it feasible to shuttle people back and forth before starting to do surface bases for humans.

I don’t really have a choice. I don’t see any orbital bases being set up, nor do I see any better chance of myself getting into space than this, period. I only have a shot at this just because of how it is set up.

It's easy to talk about building your own self-sufficient colony but it's harder to apply the knowledge needed to actually do it. Also, because supplies are not guaranteed, the people living inside the colony need to be extremely smart scientists to make their own materials, based on what they have available on the surface of Mars.[/font]

The challenge makes it fun.

Imagine you and the other colonists would get really sick, like contracting an epidemic or something. There's no hospital around for millions of miles. What then? Also, provided that every member has a precise role in the community, if something happens to him/her, then everything goes to hell. For this very reason, I think it's important that the future colonists be trained in multiple fields of work.

2 people are trained heavily in engineering (I am already an engineer), 2 in medical science, and all will have basic first-aide training.



L. Spiro

Also, if missions to the Moon were successful, then we gain the confidence that we need; then we know we can do this, we are motivated towards embarking on what can be a one-way trip.

They will send 8 or so ships to Mars before any humans go there, the plan being partly to deliver supplies but also to practice the travel and landing procedures.


L. Spiro

Yeah, living on mars within the next few decades would probably be a lot more like living in a tent in a desert, then close to anything star trek.
Except the tent would likely have more conveniences, like (realtime) internet and access to health care. And breathable air outside.
And you won't have global months long dust storms that will kill you if you go outside, and in the meantime clogs all your equipment.[/quote]
Unless there are some very significant theoretical and engineering advances in physics in the next few decades, you won't be seeing realtime internet on Mars anytime soon. The speed of light average roundtrip from Mars to Earth is about 25 minutes. But there's always hope! It would be kind of cool to create an artificial atmosphere on Mars

[font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]We are talking about rockets capable of covering vast distances of space, not orbital rockets. I can't recal the last time when private contractors have sent a rocket to the Moon. Do you?

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Are we talking about "rockets" ie. launch vehicles or spacecraft? If you're just talking about the rocket (which I was, since that was the term used), anything that was launched to the moon or beyond on an Atlas V was technically launched by a private contractor - ULA. That includes the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (Mars), New Horizons (Pluto), Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter/LCROSS (Moon, and the rocket's Centaur stage was intentionally crashed into the moon on that mission, so the rocket literally went to the moon), Juno (Jupiter), and Mars Science Laboratory (Mars). So yes, private contractors HAVE sent spacecraft beyond low Earth orbit, though as far as I know they have yet to build such a spacecraft for anyone but NASA. Granted that these are uncrewed spacecraft, and crewed space missions beyond low Earth orbit are likely to need multiple launches and/or in-space refuelling, at least with currently-flying LVs, but as far as the rocket itself is concerned, crewed spacecraft are just spacecraft with unusual operational constraints; as far as the launch vehicle is concerned, they're just payloads that need to be put into a particular orbit at a particular time by the rocket.

Furthermore, private contractors built a lot of the exploration hardware used in the Apollo program, too. The Apollo spacecraft itself, for instance, was built by North American Aviation. IIRC NAA was also the prime contractor for the second stage of the Saturn V rocket, too, while Northrop Grumman was the prime contractor for the lunar module.

Biggest reason to want moon bases before going to Mars would be:
A) Providing a Staging area to construct and launch vehicles large enough for manned missions to Mars.
B) Providing a proving ground for long term colonial techs. Proving key things such as life support systems such as water and O2 recycling work reliably with no outside influence, and the farming practices for food production hold sound in the long term. Yes, there are different challenges, but there is still a fair bit of cross over. (Not to mention that long term effects of low gravity environments would likely be accelerated on the Moon as compared to on Mars, so good to know before hand.)