sorry for the double post - i was having a lot of trouble with my net connection and thought the first one had been interupted.

hapaboy, I think you are referring to something similar to the Fallout series that had targeted shots. It would be a little more difficult to do this with MMORPGs if battles were all real time.

Its nice that your thinking about something more interactive for combat in MMRPG''s! However, i think the "slowing down" of only some characters would be a headache to implement.

Such things as RANGED WEAPONS, SPELLS, SPELL EFFECTS, etc all can really screw up your system. And what of the players witnessing a battle? What if they see 2 going at it and are in slow-motion battle and because the battle is going so slow, they can just sit around and wait for the perfect time to join in(if that is even possible) and deal a deadly blow.

You have to consider WHY these MMRPG''s use what you consider "simple" battle systems:

Are they simple to allow for friendly user-interface?

Do they make combat so that more agile hands (14 year olds) cannot perform better then adults?

Does internet connections to the game have something to do with why they design combat like they do (i dont know the answer to this)?

well, thats my 2 cents worth, hope you get the point and good luck, im right there with ya thinking about combat in MMRPGs too!!

Just came across a brilliant action-based combat system...

or at least it would be brilliant if they rounded it off, but anyway, check out Silver, published by Infogrames

I really like this combat system, it''s got a nice feel to it. But it wouldn''t do for a MMORPG.

GalaxyQuest, communication speed is a very large part of the problems that have to be dealt with in considering designs for MMORPGs, because it''s hard to synchronize four thousand players. To get around it they have to keep the packet sizes extremely small so that there is a greater chance of getting through to the server. That''s just about the whole reason they keep combat systems simple, except that usually they aren''t that simple anyways, the servers often run quite complicated combat algorithms that consider positions of mobs with relation to one-and-other, armour and weapon types and materials, and then the actual damage value is fed back to the player.

Sounds like Mike Tysons'' Punch Out for the NES.

Seriously. The enemies have different attacks and usually right before they attack they signal it in some way and if you hit them at the right place at the right time you do a lot of damage.

My concern would be using the mouse in a real-time fight. Punch-Out ran quickly but using the controller you cold very quickly react and there were only two places you hit, head and body. (A lot of it was timing, not just placement)

Making people click on an enemy as they are fighting it might be annoying and too reflex based. But having them click on an image of different locations off to the side is removing them from the actual combat; you fight enemies, not body-part representations. That would be my primary concern, the actual interface for targeting.

What would really be nice would be if you could just move your character around and choose some different types of attacks, and aim yourself rather than clicking, but I suppose that is more suitable for a console and controller setup.

Thanks all for the feedback everyone! =)

I do have some more things Id like everyone to consider. To implement the above battle system in an mmorpg may cause problems but hear me out....

Ive thought of a couple way that may work:

When a player enters battle with mob boss or another player, battle slows down in only their view. Say I was a passerby and I looked at the other player fighting the Mob, I would see them as fighting in real time. What I would see would not be a perfect representation of what is going on but will be a computer generated fightscene in real time. Now if, as a passerby, I decided to enter combat to help the other player or to attack the other player, the second that I press the attack button, or another button that will include me in the action, I also enter the slowed down combat mode. Yet to all outsiders, the other player, I, and the mob look as if we are all fighting in real time.

That will take care of the discrepencies in time between onlookers and combaters. Other problems probably exist with this, but Ill probably look into them. Please let me know if you see one.


Now I am planning on implementing special moves, a typical combat scene will be a mix of certain moves, all with weak points attached to them. A kick may leave its user open for a sweep attack. To better visualize this, imagine a fighting game such as Tekken, seen through first person or third person, and at a slowed rate of time. Defensive and offensive moves will be available, as a player gains skill in combat, he or she learns new combat moves that allow him to take advantage of other move's weakeness. Now I havent decided exactly how this will work with the targetting system, but I hope that gives everyone an idea of what Im thinking, either that or sticking with the simple targetting system that I first described.

Any comments? Ill check back when I finish work.

Alohaz all =)

The poetry of silence is what
my parents read to me,
perhaps the greatest verse,
for it does not bias the mind----Hapaboy =)






Edited by - hapaboy on October 17, 2001 2:50:54 AM

Grandia 2 (Dreamcast) Battle system rules

It''s really great, you should try it to see how it works, it''s unfair to describe it since it''s very different when you play the game.

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

If you switched to a tekken style combat view you would not need to slow the game down. In a real life combat situation the effect of adrenaline on the brain causes it to interpret time as moving more slowly. The trick is to encourage the player to become so immersed in the game that this response is triggered in their mind. You cannot slow time differentially for multiplayer games, or you would get the same problems as you get with lag. You ever played counterstrike with a slow modem?
In tekken and similar games, even an adequate player can spot weakneses forming and exploit them. It''s a great idea though, and games certainly need better combat. You could also try an improved version of the creature combat in black and white - this was good, but slow to respond. Speed up, not down.


Olly

Try Oni too - that has different combat moves and stuff like you are suggesting, but it suffers from bad level design.

Hello all, back from work :D

About my earlier comparison with tekken. I think a better explanation would clear it up. I dont want it to be just like tekken where you punch, kick, ect.. I dont want a person''s reflexes to be a determining factor, I want a person''s tactics to decide a battle. That is why I want to slow down combat a bit. The reason I used Tekken is because I want to give an idea of how battles would look like. I dont want those, slash, slash, slash, slash type of battles with the same animation occuring over and over again. I want it to look great. Wouldnt you have more pride for your char after you see him duck under a slash and thrust at his enemy''s belly? That effect is what I want.

In mmorpgs, I believe it is possible to slow time by giving all onlookers the "illusion" that you are still fighting in real time. I guess the combatants will have to live with seeing everything else moving faster unless I can figure out a way to do this. I was thinking of a partial blur on the surroundings, not too much as to prevent a player from seing incoming enemies.

As for the battle tactics this is a brief of what I have been thinking about:

Example of a fight sequence:
Characters will wear all types of armor. Individual parts will require their own armor. Now, say my fighter is about to enter combat against another warrior, after looking over his armor (which is evident just by looking at him), I notice that his right leg is lightly armored. I think to myself, " I must lead him to expose that right leg where I can do a lot of dmg." So I decide to lead him into exposing his leg by attacking with a move that exposes my left arm. After doing so, he notices my exposed left arm and stabs it, leaving his right leg open for a very damaging attack. After seeing this, my enemy decides not to use any moves that may expose his right leg. I try to lead him by exposing my left arm, but this time he slashes downwards at it which instead exposes his well armored head.

The above example could work with relative levels of armor instead of absolute levels as well. For example, if my enemy manages to keep his right leg well guarded, I may instead try to lead him into exposing his torso which may be the next worst armored area. Yet if by trying to do so I expose a part of my body that is even worst armored...ect..

Umm, this is getting a bit complicated...=P