[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1338474005' post='4944985']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1338345502' post='4944524']
Neither do I. The worth of the game is irrelevant to my point. My point is a lot of people seem to be complaining bitterly about issues and then buying the game anyway.

Do we have evidence of this?[/quote]

As I said before, the evidence is largely anecdotal. But given the vocal complaints that are kinda hard to miss on the web coupled with the huge sales figures, I think it's a reasonable assumption.[/quote]That is completely not at all a reasonable assumption. There is no evidence to show that people complain, then buy the game. Looking at the basic figures doesn't even tell you if the same people complain are also the ones who buy.

Not that there is anything wrong if this is the case. As I say, the criticism of the game's DRM is separate to liking a game. People might buy a game because they want to play, but still rightly criticise the system put in place.

It's only a flawed argument if people say "I'm not going to buy this game" because of this, and then they go and buy it.

Er, that was exactly my point with my first post in this thread. Mostly I just wanted to post this penny arcade comic.[/quote]Which is, like your post, a straw man argument

My point is pretty simple. On one hand, people are angry. Whether that anger is justified or not is irrelevant. On the other hand Blizzard are seeing obscene amounts of money being thrown at them.

Companies are ultimately pretty simple entities. If an action is perceived to increase profits, they will continue to take that action regardless of whether that action is actually responsible for their profits or not. Until you stop giving them money, they will keep doing whatever they want.[/quote]Yes, there is a reasonable argument that one action is to call for a boycott.

But then you seem to be suggesting the very thing you then criticise people for - criticising that an alleged boycott ends up to fail, because people end up buying the game anyway. And in order to spread the word about the boycott, and the reasons for not buying, you have to spread the word - what you above criticised as "noise".

You're going to have lots of people who aren't aware of the system. You're going to have people who already bought it. You're going to have people who just disagree with the idea. Plus all the people who just don't care.

I think a boycott is a reasonable idea. I think it's difficult to succeed. And I think it's odd to criticise people criticising the game, because there hasn't been a boycott, when the only one arguing for it is you, and not them, and you even seem to think it's wrong to spread the word about why people shouldn't play. Should no one ever criticise Windows, because it's immensely successful?

I know I'm late to the party, but I have to agree with many of the points already made. D3 is definitely pay-to-win, whether it's real-money or in-game gold (which is time, and for many also money). Regular item drops simply can't support your character much further than Nightmare, and the blacksmith gear is underwhelming until you reach 60 (so I've heard). I just unlocked Inferno the other day but so far I've hit a wall trying to progress past the first few quests with my Demon Hunter, whereas I had almost no trouble with the transition from Normal to Nightmare, or Nightmare to Hell. The funny thing is, I've spent a good amount of time in the GAH buying decent DPS/VIT and crit damage gear for other difficulties, however since most elites can now 1- or 2-shot me regardless of how much HP I have, the strategy is now "OMGRUN" and occasional fire off a shot. This means high IAS, movement speed, evasiveness, etc., which ultimately means more trips to the auction house to get different gear. But of course I'd have to grind all that gold first... sigh.

However, when all is said and done, I paid $60 for a game I've already gotten 80+ hours of entertainment out of, so I suppose I got my money's worth in the end. Although I wish that being a "good" D3 player didn't just equate to just grinding enough gold to buy good gear.

[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1338512085' post='4945143']
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1338474005' post='4944985']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1338345502' post='4944524']
Neither do I. The worth of the game is irrelevant to my point. My point is a lot of people seem to be complaining bitterly about issues and then buying the game anyway.

Do we have evidence of this?[/quote]

As I said before, the evidence is largely anecdotal. But given the vocal complaints that are kinda hard to miss on the web coupled with the huge sales figures, I think it's a reasonable assumption.[/quote]That is completely not at all a reasonable assumption. There is no evidence to show that people complain, then buy the game. Looking at the basic figures doesn't even tell you if the same people complain are also the ones who buy.
[/quote]

I think a fairly large number of those complaining are complaining because they bought the game (Most likely with the belief that Blizzard, a company with vast experience running online games, would be able to pull always online DRM off without too much hassle for the consumer), its been pretty much unplayable for 2 weeks straight in europe (atleast on evenings and weekends when people are free from work/school), From what i understand the situation with the asian servers aren't much better, the US ones seems to be "ok" but also had some major issues closer to launch, Throw in the "controversies" with the RMAH (reducing droprates on items that alot of people are trying to sell to force people into buying gear rather than farming for it) and it becomes quite obvious why alot of customers are upset.

[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1338556902' post='4945295']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1338512085' post='4945143']
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1338474005' post='4944985']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1338345502' post='4944524']
Neither do I. The worth of the game is irrelevant to my point. My point is a lot of people seem to be complaining bitterly about issues and then buying the game anyway.

Do we have evidence of this?[/quote]

As I said before, the evidence is largely anecdotal. But given the vocal complaints that are kinda hard to miss on the web coupled with the huge sales figures, I think it's a reasonable assumption.[/quote]That is completely not at all a reasonable assumption. There is no evidence to show that people complain, then buy the game. Looking at the basic figures doesn't even tell you if the same people complain are also the ones who buy.
[/quote]

I think a fairly large number of those complaining are complaining because they bought the game (Most likely with the belief that Blizzard, a company with vast experience running online games, would be able to pull always online DRM off without too much hassle for the consumer), its been pretty much unplayable for 2 weeks straight in europe (atleast on evenings and weekends when people are free from work/school), From what i understand the situation with the asian servers aren't much better, the US ones seems to be "ok" but also had some major issues closer to launch, Throw in the "controversies" with the RMAH (reducing droprates on items that alot of people are trying to sell to force people into buying gear rather than farming for it) and it becomes quite obvious why alot of customers are upset.
[/quote]

So now that it's mentioned again - I ask yet again; where did they say they dynamically alter droprates based on what's on the AH? All I've seen is that they claim they had to make the droprates lower because of the existance of the AH.

And where do you get the information that the game is unplayable on European servers? Exaguration. My friends-list vibrates of life and I haven't had any issues apart from the first 2 hours of launch. My friends state the same.

So now that it's mentioned again - I ask yet again; where did they say they dynamically alter droprates based on what's on the AH? All I've seen is that they claim they had to make the droprates lower because of the existance of the AH.

And where do you get the information that the game is unplayable on European servers? Exaguration. My friends-list vibrates of life and I haven't had any issues apart from the first 2 hours of launch. My friends state the same.

Whether or not they dynamically alter is completely irrelevant, and a strawman argument to boot. Either way, they completely fark over the people that don't want to use the AH at all. Those players are given a broken product.

[quote name='SymLinked' timestamp='1338850454' post='4946252']
So now that it's mentioned again - I ask yet again; where did they say they dynamically alter droprates based on what's on the AH? All I've seen is that they claim they had to make the droprates lower because of the existance of the AH.

And where do you get the information that the game is unplayable on European servers? Exaguration. My friends-list vibrates of life and I haven't had any issues apart from the first 2 hours of launch. My friends state the same.

Whether or not they dynamically alter is completely irrelevant, and a strawman argument to boot. Either way, they completely fark over the people that don't want to use the AH at all. Those players are given a broken product.
[/quote]

It's not a strawman, chill out. For me it's very relevant if they alter drops based on what's AH at the time - that's not how I want to play it.
But yeah I see, you're one of the AH haters.

How are they gonna cater every type of hater? There are people who don't want to use followers, potions, elective mode or whatever. Take your pick. They can't please everyone who wants to fight the game.

I live in Sweden (that's in Europe for those who don't know) and I've been able to play without problems since two hours after launch. The AH is not a game breaker in any way and does not interfere with my game experience in any way. The drop rate is certainly not lower than in the earlier Diablo games, if anything it's much higher. If the AH breaks the game, it's because it allows you to easily get too good gear which eliminates the challenge from the game.

Whether or not they dynamically alter is completely irrelevant, and a strawman argument to boot. Either way, they completely fark over the people that don't want to use the AH at all. Those players are given a broken product.

It's not broken at all. Not fully taken advantage of maybe, but that doesn't make it broken. One could just as easily argue that Diablo 2 is broken because it doesn't include an auction house at all if you're going to be that finicky.

It's not broken at all. Not fully taken advantage of maybe, but that doesn't make it broken. One could just as easily argue that Diablo 2 is broken because it doesn't include an auction house at all if you're going to be that finicky.

No, it's broken. D2 had the trading game, where if you wanted to you could swap for items. But it wasn't forced down your throat, like the AH in D3 is. Diablo has always been a Skinner box. Only, D3 is a Skinner box with a broken lever. The D3 forums are rife with threads by people who hit a gear wall, at which point their only recourse is to go to the AH. Blizzard admits this is by design. At no point in D2 were you ever forced to trade or (even more hilarious) open your wallet and shell out actual cash (my God, have we really come to this in Diablo?) to continue to progress and beat the game.

D3 was broken as soon as Blizzard stopped letting gameplay drive the game design, and started letting the beancounters make the decisions.

At any rate, like a lot of other people seem to be, I'm kind of tired of talking about this thing. I've seen it for the over-hyped piece of money-grubbing trash that it really is, and that's sufficient for me.

I live in Sweden (that's in Europe for those who don't know) and I've been able to play without problems since two hours after launch. The AH is not a game breaker in any way and does not interfere with my game experience in any way. The drop rate is certainly not lower than in the earlier Diablo games, if anything it's much higher. If the AH breaks the game, it's because it allows you to easily get too good gear which eliminates the challenge from the game.

Check the tech support forums and you'll see the blueposts on the dates where login servers have been down or far too busy to handle the traffic. (last blizzard confirmed issues were 3 days ago, 5 days ago and 6 days ago). (prior to that there was a login server breakdown almost every day), people were still able to play IF they logged in during the day but trying to log in during evenings was close to impossible.

As for the AH it might just be a misunderstanding of what bashiok meant, but it seems odd that he would say that the AH factors into the item droprate if the item droprate is static anyway.