Wait, what? C++ Express or C# Express?

Oh yeah, sorry... C++ express doesn't have any desktop app tools with it, but I forgot that C# express does.

What? Then how am I using VS2008 C++ Express to make my win32 game right now? It also has CLR support for C++.

desktop app != game

[quote name='d000hg' timestamp='1337696733' post='4942213']
[quote name='Chris_F' timestamp='1337650160' post='4942054']
http://www.microsoft...roducts/express

Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 provides tools for Metro style app development. To create desktop apps, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher.

Well that's just brilliant. Thanks a lot Microsoft.
[/quote]I don't think this is true.
[/quote]
Uhhh... it is true... it came from Microsoft's website...

Surely existing apps will run in W8 x86/64 desktop mode just fine. So you can use VS2010 Express to create W7 apps that will also run on W8.

No?

Yeah, but you missed the point. It's not that you can't use VS2010 to make a desktop app (because you can). It's that VS11 Express can't (which means you miss out on the new features, most interesting of which (for me) is more C++11 support (though VS11 still sucks in that regard)).
[/quote]So you're complaining that in the world-class product MS give away for FREE, you don't get all the newest features available in the paid version? Boo-hoo.

This thread makes me confused as hell.
Do I have to give up hopes to make desktop apps without spending months' of salary and pick another hobby, or not?

This whole topic looks like questions of facts not opinions. Yet, this thread looks like a bunch of random aawww fuck it no habla England x(

This thread makes me confused as hell.

There is misinformation (not necessarily intentional) and fact in this thread. However, there is a ton of sky-falling hearsay FUD. Best way to combat it: go grab the win8 dev preview and start hacking on it, or visit the msdn site and read the available documentation on application creation using WinRT. Alot of the misinformation in this thread can be disproved quickly this way. The problem is alot is mixed in with semi-truths that pulling it all apart is not simple.

The main case is, you wont be hobbled by WinRT. WinRT is for the new cross-architecture Immersive-based apps and for the new apps that want to take advantage of its API... Key being cross-architecture. WinRT will work fine with C++ and .NET. And i'm sure it wont be long until other communities comes up with a hacks to make it work with them given that its based on the ECMA 335 metadata standard similar to .NET. You dont have-to use the built in wrappers in WinRT to access areas of the OS, you can do it the 'ol fashioned way and still be a WinRT app, but if you want it to be cross-archtiecture compatible from the get-go, you better damn well, or expect to live debug hell.

There are two parts here.

Windows applications (those using WinAPI, windows.h, winsock.h, ...) requires Windows SDK. It is a standalone download, is completely unrelated to Visual Studio. Some versions of Visual Studio come bundled with it.

Windows SDK 2010 (maybe 2008) come with console-based toolchain containing all the headers, libs and most importantly, compiler. Using that, you can build (compile/link) any kind of WinAPI application.

If you want more convenient interface and visual editors, there is Visual Studio.


There are two changes coming with 2011.
- Windows SDK will no longer contain the compiler
- Visual Studio Express will no longer come with support for Windows SDK

While Microsoft is doing its best to be as confusing as possible, the way they currently presented the matter is this:
- If your application #includes windows.h, you'll need Professional or higher in order to be able to successfully compile/link that into executable.

Visual Studio 2010 and Windows SDK 2010 (7.1) will both remain free downloads and can still be used to develop Win 8 desktop apps, obviously without support for most of new C++ features (which isn't crucial) and without support for any Win 8 features.

It's also possible to think of it like this. KDevelop/QCreator/... are still available, but GCC/Clang aren't.

go grab the win8 dev preview and start hacking on it,[/quote]

Which is a full version, not Express.

There are two changes coming with 2011.
- Windows SDK will no longer contain the compiler
- Visual Studio Express will no longer come with support for Windows SDK

While Microsoft is doing its best to be as confusing as possible, the way they currently presented the matter is this:
- If your application #includes windows.h, you'll need Professional or higher in order to be able to successfully compile/link that into executable.

I thought you could still use some of the Windows SDK for metro apps, but some pieces of it were not allowed for metro apps. Is that not accurate? Or is there a separate SDK with similar functionality for metro apps?

I thought you could still use some of the Windows SDK for metro apps, but some pieces of it were not allowed for metro apps. Is that not accurate? Or is there a separate SDK with similar functionality for metro apps?

Just so I don't get accused of FUD, this is based on very verbose, convoluted and confusing text available across dozens of incredibly unspecific product description pages. There is a lot of talk about integrating the whole value chain to leverage the social and mobile advantage and similar crap.

Yes, Windows 8 applications can use either WinRT (metro) or WinAPI (legacy). Windows 8 applications will also work in hybrid mode. It all starts with Metro (the squares and touch screen) but may fall back to full desktop version (assuming they give up tablet/phone portability).

But in order to use WinAPI functionality, you need complete Windows SDK toolchain. Libraries, headers, compiler. And this part is being removed from standalone Windows SDK and Visual Studio Express (according to how it's worded).


As an example. I write a library to do something. Maybe physics. I want to provide it to Mac and Windows users, maybe Linux. Right now, I could write portable or at least non-platform specific code. For Windows, I would download Windows SDK (no Visual Studio), run make with cl instead of gcc and be done with it. So could anyone else.

With new approach, I'll be using WinRT for Windows, which requires WinRT extensions to C++, simply because that is the new API. This code will no longer build on anything else and I'll need to make two versions, one that is C++ and one that is WinC++. If I still want to provide portable version (with just WinRT glue), I'll need Pro version and so will anyone who wants to use this library, regardless of whether it's for Metro or legacy desktop.

Development and use of portable of non-WinRT applications remains the same. It isn't being removed. But from how it is being presented right now, non-WinRT code comes with a price tag for anyone who wants to use it. Not a big deal for professionals, but it introduces a huge barrier to entry to general software ecosystem.

The negative side (the VC6 angle) is that Windows-centric developers will inevitably write C++ code, but one which cannot be reused on any other platform (that includes previous versions of Windows). Even though these libraries might make little or no real use of Metro/WinRT. Just like the for-loop scoping from VC6 affected C++ code in general.


Windows SDK was made available as standalone (unrestricted aka free) around 2005, along with very standard-compliant compiler. It opened Windows ecosystem to a lot of benefits by allowing anyone to compile/test their code and libraries for Win2000 - 7 platforms. It also retained the spirit of open source software (which includes everything from git, the new languages including node.js, as well as other libraries) to be distributed as source for anyone to build instead of having to provide prebuilt opaque binaries.

Whether you develop native applications or not matters less, we all use various kinds of apps and libraries that were built using these toolchains and made available for free.


Wording however is very confusing and it may be the final release will be different. But as it stands right now, it is a considerable barrier to entry.

What? Then how am I using VS2008 C++ Express to make my win32 game right now? It also has CLR support for C++.

I think the changes are for VC11 - earlier versions of express will remain as they are.