This sounds to be the way it is right now and is why I named the thread "Why dont game designers get respected in indy teams?"
Because they should get more respect.

Game designers do get alot of respect from indie teams, The problem lies entierly with the wannabe designers who really don't understand how game design works or the constraints of indie game development.

If you can point me towards one thread on these forums where a good game designer is trying to form an indie team but failing to do so i will not only rate you up, i will pitch in and help him/her out.

In the end, I think it comes down to the fact that an indie game is a pretty small pie, that can only be cut so many ways. By that light, people start looking for places where they can trim the fat, so to speak. The designer tends to be the first one cut, because every indie fancies themselves a designer, and a designer who is only a designer (ie, who doesn't program, doesn't do art or sound or music) is deemed to be dead weight. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment is irrelevant. When there is only so much money to be thrown around, something has got to give. Would it be great if every good indie team had sufficient funding to pay a good designer? Absolutely. But for many of them, that's just wishful thinking. It's not a question of respect, or lack thereof. It's just economics.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334901738' post='4933087']
This sounds to be the way it is right now and is why I named the thread "Why dont game designers get respected in indy teams?"
Because they should get more respect.

Game designers do get alot of respect from indie teams, The problem lies entierly with the wannabe designers who really don't understand how game design works or the constraints of indie game development.

If you can point me towards one thread on these forums where a good game designer is trying to form an indie team but failing to do so i will not only rate you up, i will pitch in and help him/her out.
[/quote]

Well, I didn't say they were good game designers or good game concepts.
But the replies all those threads are saying that game designers need to do a second job as well is just wrong.
They should instead be replying that he is a bad game designer... or not post at all rather.

In indie teams, "game designers" aren't respected because they haven't earned it.

A programmer spends years studying, working on many small projects and learning from these experiences.
A graphical artist spends years perfecting his craft, and maybe working with a few programmers on smaller games, or using tools like GameMaker to prototype their designs.
A common indie game designer... finds gamedev.net, thinks of a game idea and posts here asking for people to work on it. And we, the programmers and artists are supposed to just trust that this guy is brilliant and will produce an awesome game.

To be respected as game designer, you must have something to show. Start by creating mods for various games, work with GameMaker, and eventually ship a game. I know you won't accept this but a GDD from an unproven designer is worthless.

A programmer or an artist will have previous experience working on games, which is why they are 10x more qualified to design a game, over someone who just has an idea but never produced anything.

[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1334902419' post='4933088']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334901738' post='4933087']
This sounds to be the way it is right now and is why I named the thread "Why dont game designers get respected in indy teams?"
Because they should get more respect.

Game designers do get alot of respect from indie teams, The problem lies entierly with the wannabe designers who really don't understand how game design works or the constraints of indie game development.

If you can point me towards one thread on these forums where a good game designer is trying to form an indie team but failing to do so i will not only rate you up, i will pitch in and help him/her out.
[/quote]

Well, I didn't say they were good game designers or good game concepts.
But the replies all those threads are saying that game designers need to do a second job as well is just wrong.
They should instead be replying that he is a bad game designer... or not post at all rather.
[/quote]

Can you atleast point out a thread or classified made by a game designer then ? (He doesn't even have to be good, he just have to actually offer to do all the design work) (i can rate you up for it but i won't waste my time helping out on such a project)

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334902810' post='4933091']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1334902419' post='4933088']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334901738' post='4933087']
This sounds to be the way it is right now and is why I named the thread "Why dont game designers get respected in indy teams?"
Because they should get more respect.

Game designers do get alot of respect from indie teams, The problem lies entierly with the wannabe designers who really don't understand how game design works or the constraints of indie game development.

If you can point me towards one thread on these forums where a good game designer is trying to form an indie team but failing to do so i will not only rate you up, i will pitch in and help him/her out.
[/quote]

Well, I didn't say they were good game designers or good game concepts.
But the replies all those threads are saying that game designers need to do a second job as well is just wrong.
They should instead be replying that he is a bad game designer... or not post at all rather.
[/quote]

Can you atleast point out a thread or classified made by a game designer then ? (He doesn't even have to be good, he just have to actually offer to do all the design work) (i can rate you up for it but i won't waste my time helping out on such a project)
[/quote]

Seriously, you see those threads all the time.
Some guy who tells his game concept in a very bad format and words and says he needs a programmer and artist to create it for him while he tells them what to do.

Most threads with game concepts though are by people who have just created a very badly detailed concept and says they'll do programming or art.
So they ain't really a game designer and starting a project without a GDD and a bad concept like that leads to indy disaster.

Then there's some better than average designers who have created an average GDD.
But they always state in their threads that they'll do two jobs like art or programming as well..

This is because game designers have a bad reputation because people don't understand the value of a game designer.
People always saying you can't just be the designer or idea person (which they think is same as designer(Proves so many devs are unaware of the designers value)).

It's like the saying goes "If a person gets told he's stupid enough times he will start to believe it".
Game designers are useless and give out free half assed charity concepts and average GDD's because no "designer" wants to put in too much effort because it's apparently useless and unwanted.

I assume when you said "indy" you mean small scale companies or a group of hobbyists.

In such small scale environment where budget is limited everyone is expected to pitch in to contribute to the completion of project and that means people who actually get the work done - your programmers, sound people, graphics people, your system admin etc. True. A good game designer will make the difference between a good game and a bad game, but the difference of a programmer in such teams can determine whether the project is going to be completed at all.

Another sad fact is that everyone can be a game designer, but not everyone can be a programmer. If you ever worked for small IT companies (or generally any small company) you will notice that almost everyone will be doubling up in different roles because there simply isn't enough resources to go around like big companies.

Having said that if a pure game designer wants to get the respect they want in an indy team, the game designer will need to prove to the team that he can contribute to the indy team as much as everyone else, which comes back to the point of them needing to do things that actually contribute to the game.

As for highly detailed planning, as a project manager I can tell you one thing - plan but don't waste too much time planning, because someone or something is gonna ruin your day, spoil your plan and just make your life miserable regardless of the amount of detailed planning you have. Don't forget we had been building houses for ages before the first architect was born and we had been making do.

I have to say I agree with Simon.

I've skimmed this thread, and it seems to me like an attempt at finding an excuse to not learn how to program.

In startups, and businesses in general, coming up with a business plan is an important part of the process. But the people who make the business plan also do other things. You don't have a dedicated "business-plan-writer" who gets to keep 50% of the profit after the rest of the team completed executing the business plan.

Having a design oriented person on the team is important - but it's not a full time job. It's also a job that cannot be done if the person who does it is not involved in actually making the game in any direct way.

-Xaan

Don't forget we had been building houses for ages before the first architect was born and we had been making do.

The above is what you're reply sums up to.
And my response is that the little huts etc you were building before architects came pales in comparison to the grandness of the architects buildings.

I have to say I agree with Simon.

I've skimmed this thread, and it seems to me like an attempt at finding an excuse to not learn how to program.

In startups, and businesses in general, coming up with a business plan is an important part of the process. But the people who make the business plan also do other things. You don't have a dedicated "business-plan-writer" who gets to keep 50% of the profit after the rest of the team completed executing the business plan.

Having a design oriented person on the team is important - but it's not a full time job. It's also a job that cannot be done if the person who does it is not involved in actually making the game in any direct way.

-Xaan

Maybe you should read the thread again instead of just skimm through it.
It sounds to me like you're a programmer who enjoys having people give you GDD's for free.

[quote name='Siao' timestamp='1334908341' post='4933108']Don't forget we had been building houses for ages before the first architect was born and we had been making do.

The above is what you're reply sums up to.
And my response is that the little huts etc you were building before architects came pales in comparison to the grandness of the architects buildings.

[/quote]

And my point is Indy teams do not have the luxury of building a grand temple, they make do with what they have which is not a lot.