[quote name='Zethariel' timestamp='1334152103' post='4930239']
Strange thing though, when you finish that last level, there is nothing left but those professions. Maybe it is something that people didn't think of -- why reroll a character, if you can retain your killer face-eating orc and make him pursue a degree in artistic smithing. There would be a lot of new content, and his (the player's) level would only help to ward off the monsters -- he would finally have time to entangle himself in a proper story-line. No rush or competition, just a journey of discovery.

And thus you unravel the purpose of this entire thread -- creating meaningful time-sinks outside the straightforward "level up and then do end-game at which point sit around bored or leave until new content"

Your virtual cookie now contains a fortune
[/quote]

The issue with being stuck doing nothing is that in themeparks you are limited by how fast the dev team can make a new expansion and then raise the level cap and add new items to craft. In a sandbox with no level cap, item decay and so forth its much easier. If there is no dev defined story you don't have to wait for new chapters. Imagine a George RR Martin style 6 year wait for the next installment of story. Blargh!

I was thinking about having some sort of teaching system that is more explicit though. Maybe just an addon to the social bonuses. Like if you simply watch a master craft, or he crafts an example and you craft your own attempt at the same design, you get an increase to skill growth compared to if you had crafted alone. Similarly he gets a small boost because he has to think and focus and explain what he is doing and how. Obviously you don't literally explain it because games can't process that, but you could roleplay that if you wanted. So each of you is being benefited by this as opposed to both crafting alone. You could also be paying for him to teach or be an apprentice and handle prep and gathering and then observe him working on a commission from another player.

As I said most of the actual effects of this would be an area scan for other crafters and for people building the same items and then a % bonus to experience. But you could roleplay it as more realistic.

hmm you could almost relegate a teacher profession to the level of a standard secondary profession shared by all toons doing it this way. I like that esp. as the systems of going off to buy training or alternatively leaving your self on auto-research mode leaves you less involved in the process. This could also develop into another form of economic trading as high teaching ability combined with a master craftsman levelled ability might teach more than say one with less skill...almost a pay by the skills learnt method. Implementing it though without seeming to be overburdensome might be tricky though.


Offtopic: And had been meaning to mention it before but AltarofScience's post gave me a mental reminder.

@Kyan
@AltarofScience

I wish you both well in your game/project - they both sound fun

Best way to prolong a game's life is roleplay, where players themselves play a game within a game. RP servers were fun back in the day, all those serious guild meetings, worshipping chaos gods and passing judgement on missbehaving acolytes or initiating new people...

Grinding can be diminshed to some degree.

Typical scenario:
You are a smithy. You gain levels of smithing and are able to build better stuff. You grind, you're bored, you hit the top, and then the fun stops, you go to the Auction House and sell copypasta epic goods

Upgraded scenario:
You can build anything, given you find the right blueprints and pass the right mini-games, which would be difficult for a newbie, but not impossible (less incentive to grind). This way, you can (somewhat forcefully) engross the player in story, make him run around a bit, have a target at getting better and better without repeating the same task over and over. And, in this scenario, people's goods would vary, so it would be a thriving market instead of copypasta swords and shields.


The above can be done with combat as well -- all the Devil May Cry mechanics single-player games use are being used more often in today's games. Skill replaces grind, and games gain a longer life-span as a result.

Although not a perfect example, but LoL is a game that manages to conceal grind with fun. You esentially grind yourself to whatever objective you want -- a new level, a new hero, joining a ranked team. You engage in unique encounters most of the time, so there is very little repetition, if any.

Story based games may have a problem with that, unless a game would be based around a horde of hired Game Masters crafting the game as they go -- while not a massive multiplayer game, it could support a 1 GM per 2-3 people scenario. Which brings me to pen and paper RPGs -- which sooner or later will be translated into computers and games. The moment someone creates an AI capable of creative thought, that is the moment the best game ever will be created, with all the art assets, stories and immersion.

Whoops, got caught in the moment. Excuse the rambling *blush*

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334152474' post='4930244']
I was thinking about having some sort of teaching system that is more explicit though. Maybe just an addon to the social bonuses. Like if you simply watch a master craft, or he crafts an example and you craft your own attempt at the same design, you get an increase to skill growth compared to if you had crafted alone. Similarly he gets a small boost because he has to think and focus and explain what he is doing and how. Obviously you don't literally explain it because games can't process that, but you could roleplay that if you wanted. So each of you is being benefited by this as opposed to both crafting alone. You could also be paying for him to teach or be an apprentice and handle prep and gathering and then observe him working on a commission from another player.

As I said most of the actual effects of this would be an area scan for other crafters and for people building the same items and then a % bonus to experience. But you could roleplay it as more realistic.

hmm you could almost relegate a teacher profession to the level of a standard secondary profession shared by all toons doing it this way. I like that esp. as the systems of going off to buy training or alternatively leaving your self on auto-research mode leaves you less involved in the process. This could also develop into another form of economic trading as high teaching ability combined with a master craftsman levelled ability might teach more than say one with less skill...almost a pay by the skills learnt method. Implementing it though without seeming to be overburdensome might be tricky though.


Offtopic: And had been meaning to mention it before but AltarofScience's post gave me a mental reminder.

@Kyan
@AltarofScience

I wish you both well in your game/project - they both sound fun
[/quote]

I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x

I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x

Sadly my coding skills died when they upgraded the abacus and Augusta abandoned me for Charles .



I wants more professions

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334153654' post='4930254']
I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x

Sadly my coding skills died when they upgraded the abacus and Augusta abandoned me for Charles .



I wants more professions
[/quote]

Well in part of my earlier posts I described how to have a nearly infinite set of professions.

As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver
A lot of others but I think you get the point.
The only limit is your imagination, and possibly your graphics programming skills.

As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver

Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334154627' post='4930261']
As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver

Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.
[/quote]

Actually a lot of those skills do have minigames. Sailing and Flying for instance. Alchemy, Forging, Making Alloys and so forth. Climbing has a mini-game, too.

For forging its this:
You make a bar of metal. You heat it up. Then you beat on it and each hit has an effect, mainly flattening. You might want to fold the metal, or make an edge and so forth. You have heating and cooling cycles limited stamina, ie how long you can keep beating before the item is crafted, and so forth.

For climbing its this:
You have ropes or chains or something flexible. You have the option of special shoes or gloves and harnesses. You also have pitons and a hammer. Based on your skill, modified by the lead climber of course, and the steepness of the face plus maybe its handhold score(which you can change by carving handholds) you have a small chance of falling every time you try to move. If you fall you drop down to your last piton just like real climbing.
As I said you can modify difficulty by carving handholds, this was something done by Native Americans at Mesa Verde. You can also leave your pitons and ropes up. You could build and leave a rope ladder. In theory, although it would take a long time, you could carve out steps or the inside of the mountain and whatever other things I have forgotten. I suppose technically this stuff is more crafting than mini-game but the piton and rope part is a mini-game.

Some things don't really have mini-games. For instance art. You just paint. Or sew on shinies to clothes or w/e. Carving sorta has a minigame, its more like a special screen that is a specialized modeling program.

Alchemy is part mini-game and part research. Should you grind or powder something? Boil it? The minigame involves mixing it, adding water, boiling, maybe dealing with precipitates. Did you add an ingredient at the right time, get the right concentration? Stuff like that.

I suppose clothing is a mini-game in a sense. Stitching and knitting and what not.

A lot of things are less mini-games and more special user interfaces. Construction for instance. You place all the building materials, say bricks. You could also have prefabs sorta like a modelling program where you can make a group of bricks and place that group instead of each single brick. And so forth. Ship and airship building works pretty much like making buildings.

I could write you a 1000000 word book on the whole system or you could ask about any specific professions and how I am implementing them, or what some implementations I am not personally using are. Or you could not ask anything. Its all fine with me.

I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.

Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.

[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334011625' post='4929692']
I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.

Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.
[/quote]

I mean, most professions in real life are drudgery. So I am not sure what you are expecting. I thought that climbing example was a good way of providing what you want. Its has the climbing game, plus modifying terrain plus setting up structures to make things easier for others. Infrastructure type stuff. You could combine climbing and ladders and stairs with building bridges. Ie creating faster means of travel through improvements.

I suppose we could use the ship example again.

So you have the sailing minigame, ie reading winds, putting sails in right place to get speed, rudder and so forth. Then you have all the maintaining of ships for damage and wear. You have people in the crows nest looking out for land. You can also learn the seas. Are there currents? Shoals? Reefs? Where are good coves for hiding? What monsters and animals live in what area? Icebergs?
So that is the life of sailors/captains/crew.
Then for just sailing you have stuff like building the ships, finding materials, power, vs cargo, vs speed.
You constantly try to build better ships. Try to find optimal sailing routes. How can I get there faster? What are good trade routes. What ports have what goods and need what goods?
Defending from attacks by monsters and pirates.

This is essentially a 3d real time version of Patrician. Patrician went all the way to V. So clearly people love these games and play them for a long time.
And this version is more complex and time consuming. You can do all the same stuff and more. And that is just sea travel.

Is that the kind of thing you mean? The time sink is provided because of better ships and materials always being gathered. Also you can find better routes if you can fight off monsters or maybe some place has winds that are only good for a bit and then blow you backwards or there are storms. So as you get faster ships you can time it so that you avoid the storms and cross winds and thus take a shorter and thus faster route.

You could play the entire game just being a boat captain on a trading vessel.

You could do the same with airships or land caravans.

Your question is sorta vague.

What does involving the player mean exactly? Is creativity problem solving? Art? Music?