You''ve heard of tech trees... what about the idea of reverse tech trees? Months ago, I tried to figure out how to get more of a science fiction feel into into a game. A straight science idea I posted bombed, mostly because it was waaaay too abstract. Here''s a second try, for a game that''s an odd blend of RTS, RPG, and sim in the vein of Star Trek: RTS and empire gamers are comfortable with the idea of "Tech X and Y equals Tech Z." Once you get tech Z, you can build certain units / items. If you want certain units / items, all you''ve got to do is reach the tech tree. So what I''m thinking about is that players can 1) combine objects to create new objects, or new effects 2) break existing objects into other objects, and combine those in different ways 3) assemble them all into a detailed network that requires power, or fuel, or other resources to operate All this would be according to a "reverse tech tree." They''d do this in order to get past environmental challenges. So a destroyed door could be fixed with parts from a communicator, or gun. A forcefield could be temporarily interrupted by building a weapon out of a medical scanner and portable computer connected to a power conduit. The tree wouldn''t always be the same. Characters with higher science skills could, like McGuyver, would get more effects and sub-objects out of a single object (within limits, of course). A handy search feature would list all objects that the science people know of which could create a sub-object or effect they need. When faced with a challenge, like a damaged reactor or burning conduit, the player could right click and bring up a list of related effects that are also in a tree. Fire, for instance, would have FUEL (to worsen) and STARVE. Selecting STARVE would bring up sub-tree of solutions: Minus O2 icon, Freeze icon and Flood icon, each with a time cost, ingredients needed and chance for failure. This is meant to be mixed in with other real-time challenges, like combat or environmental anomalies, in a ship or colony base settting. I can imagine players having to repel boarders, damage control fires and destroyed energy conduits, set up triage for wounded crew, and fight a space battle, all at the same time. I have a bit of confidence that this will be possible with the right UI, if only the idea is sound. Constructive comments, thoughts? -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator
I have a bit of confidence that this will be possible with the right UI, if only the idea is sound.

Usually to see if my ideas are sound, I put myself in the programmers shoes and say "how would I implement this?" I love being a designer because I get to dream up all these cool ideas that could go into games, but after some dreaming I always ground myself every now and then by jumping into the programmer's world and seeing if I'm about to put him through living hell Now I'm not saying your idea isn't feasable - anything is. That little ditty was just my thoughts on the quoted statement above.

Anyways *flexes fingers* it's been a while since I've had time to post in here so lessee now...

I think your saving grace is that you had the mind to point out that with the "right UI" it would be possible. I always stress to people that you can acheive the most complex things possible in games as long as you make them easy for the player. This complex->easy conversion throws off a lot of people. I've always liked the idea of yours, Wav, where you can break things down and recombine them into new things. The strategies that would be available to players could be the major game point - if done right players could find their way out of any game situation, making it harder for people to gain the advantage. This of course much be watched closely, because if no one can easily gain an advantage, then no one can easily win But a few tweaks here and there could fix that, you just have to remember that it's there.

So anyways this is just one of those extremely complex problems that has to be broken down into a managable experience for the player, no easy task for anyone to be sure. I have no doubt that something like this could be put to good use in a game, but I also have no doubt that somewhere along the line you'll be forced to tone the idea down a bit (it's inevitable - but next time maybe you can finish the job). Otherwise if you just go ahead, you could get players banging down your doors cause they hate this new idea cause it's too much to think about. And that's the best (sarcastic) thing I've noticed about regular (not hardcore) strategy gamers, they want all the complexities of war and battle simplified into a nice, manageable little package just for them - when in reality war and battles are in no way manageable! But there it is for you, anything complex must become extremly simple and intuitive to be accepted by the mainstream gamers.

quote: This is meant to be mixed in with other real-time challenges, like combat or environmental anomalies, in a ship or colony base settting. I can imagine players having to repel boarders, damage control fires and destroyed energy conduits, set up triage for wounded crew, and fight a space battle, all at the same time.

This is exactly the kind of complexity a lot of gamers like to avoid, and where you point out the need for a good UI. Since you stated it, you'd better think about it - "what would the UI have to be like to let the player manage all these things?" Let's not just focus on just your original idea here, cause if you can't come up with a good UI to let the player use this easily, the idea is simply worthless.

Aaaaahhh, that felt good. Nice to be back. Hope I didn't burn you at all, these are my thoughts.

Drew Sikora
A.K.A. Gaiiden

Blade Edge Software
Public Relations, Game Institute
Staff Member, GDNet

Read my online column! Now!!

Since there now seem to be two concurrent "sub-threads" - the ''right UI" issue and the original "reverse tech trees" - I''ll try to share my thoughts on both.

[Reverse tech trees: ]
Excellent idea! In fact, I had often wondered whether such an approach could be applied to puzzles and problem-solving in games in general: there is an objective, and a number of ways to acheive it based on the intrinsic properties of the problem and available resources. In the case of technology, I think every technology would require a sort of graph which contained the technologies it is comprised of as well as the interconnections between them. Certain technologies would support certain interfaces - like two-pin sockets or different voltages - which would determine which other technologies they could be combined with.

All of this would be handled automatically (you don''t want your gamer struggling to find either an adapter or a 12mm hose to fit the fire extinguisher when the core is about to implode!) so the user would be presented with a collection of compatible technologies.

[User interface: ]
Selective reduction? By this I mean the selection of one technology from inventory reduces the further selections to compatible devices (see above). In addition, passing the cursor over other functional technologies (blasters, pressure suits, etc) lists all available devices with compatible devices differentiated (highlighting, perhaps?) Left-click to add, right-click to remove? Drap-and-drop onto a "workbench" (where it''s automatically assembled)?

I suppose the solution will lie somewhere between and yet above.

(Reverse tech trees)

Nice idea, it sounds like this could be put to really good use.. as it isn''t so much a techtree, as the ability to Reverse Engineer items to see how they are made.

Arcanum had lots of combinable items, which would make ''better'' items such as traps, weapons, robotic spider allies! healing items, etc.

Ie; Oily Rag + Bottle = Molotov Cocktail

Whereas this reverse engineering idea allows you to have access to any technology (to make or alter it) without having to find a schematic for it (like in Arcanum).

QAnd the skill level of the character can alter how many resources are needed to make change or break something (like the number of lockpicks in Deus Ex).

Anything could be broken down into its atoms (but,that,doesnt,have,to,be,simulated).

Such a system could *cough* allow be made so that a player could create virtually anything given enough time, energy and matter they could take barren rocks and turn them into a transporter if given enough time and power, whereas mineral rich rocks would allow for quicker manufacture and less energy consumption (energy could be in limited supply). Kind of like an alchemy/matter transformation system!

I think somebody has been watching too much Cubix

The idea of a Rube-Goldbergian Tech Tree is great - but I would only be repeating what everyoe else already stated. You need compatible interfaces, a sweet UI, and duct tape.

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-WarMage
...can we have B.A. Baracus as an NPC in this game?..

So you would need a way to analyze an object to see what interfaces it supports (what kind of power coupler or control device does it use, how universal these interfaces might be throughout the game world, etc.) Once you have identified unique parts you can reuse, you break them up and either connect them or stow them. Connecting them is a matter of re-orienting and mating the interfaces. This can lead to interesting object characteristics. Say you have a power cell that has a coupler sticking out one end, near the top, only it doesn't line up right to put power to the lamphead you ripped off the wall. You might need either another special power cell with the correctly oriented coupler, or even find a unique power cell with a universal coupler that can be reoriented to suit the task. Same goes for weapon units, computing devices and so forth. You can't (well, could but ought not to) create a weapon out of parts if the muzzle points at your chest when you're done.

I can see the objects basically needing to know what type of interface they carry, (color coded, pretty much) and what type of job each part does (maybe power, control, weapon, medical, and transport). Each part is logically tied to another, a weapon might have two interface needs - control and power - before it can be used in something else. I'm sure you can define enough object data to carry this off. In the game, the interfaces can simply be color decals hooked to the wepaon mesh.

This would definitely be a vacuum cleaner game, but I look at it kinda like Junkyard Wars.

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-WarMage
...so it's kinda like McDonald's Monopoly, where you're looking for that one really cool piece to finish the block ...

Edited by - WarMage on October 3, 2001 1:14:43 PM

quote: Original post by WarMage
So you would need a way to analyze an object to see what interfaces it supports (what kind of power coupler or control device does it use, how universal these interfaces might be throughout the game world, etc.)

I only have a few seconds to respond to this, but I wanted to clear something up: I''m not looking to make the player engage in lots of obtuse, menial tasks. What I was thinking of was much more like a magick system in an RPG, but one based on science fiction environmental puzzles.

Here''s an example: You''re stranded on a planet with semi-poisonous atmosphere. You''re in a ship that''s crashlanded. Although you''ve radioed for help, the hull''s breached and you''re leaking atmosphere.

The rescue will take at least 2 game days. You only have 1 day of atmosphere. What to do? Well, I see you being able to use your science officer to cook up some kind of solution (again, with the right interface).

For instance, say one answer is: A forcefield can be configured to react with certain types of atmosphere, changing it into other things. You have a forcefield with no power, and need the components to reconfigure it from elsewhere. So the gameplay would be getting your characters to move about the ship to grab the needed items, then simply using them on the forcefield and hoping it works.

I''m not looking to make this really difficult (as Oluseyi suggested, lots of drag & drop). More on this later...

quote:
...can we have B.A. Baracus as an NPC in this game?..

LOL!

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Okay, so maybe now *I''m* the one watching too many cartoons. I do think it would make for a good puzzle game to have to build up pieces and parts to help you along your way. Beats the hell out of talisman hunting and the like. I had the thought of SS2 with even more insane object puzzles, catch my drift?

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-WarMage
...(!bSuccess && (iAttempts <= 1)) ? attempt() : attempt();... (if at first you don''t succeed...)