It's all pseudoscience. Evolutionary development makes no disctiontion in the same way as we do thorugh eugenics on what makes a particular species successful. This basically implies that a mentally challenged person could conceivably have an advantage over most people if a special scenario should arise. Selection pressure due to environmental factors can dramatically change the characteristic of any species... or wipe them out. One or the other.

Intelligence is not actually that great as a survival trait. If I could afford to have a child with any willing sperm donor I wouldn't particularly seek out a genius.

Also, OP clearly doesn't quite get population genetics and mate selection. Ill health often results in looking unattractive in some way, or lacking the energy to pursue a mate, or lacking the focus to earn a living and take care of one's appearance, so people who have various inherited health problems are less likely to reproduce than those who look healthy.

There is a difference between survival of an individual and a species. If I were speaking solely of individual survival then in theory being below average intelligence, poor, uneducated, and physically attractive would result in a much higher chance to reproduce.

Mate selection can only account for what is physically apparent. When someone develops an unseen condition it will be over looked. Mental disorders are especially over looked. Take this for example.

Why do you seem to be so obsessed with eugenics... tsk tsk

I take it none of you have actually read my entire post or the link to the article which was posted on the Richard Dawkin Foundation website. That or you simply refuse to think about it.

What exactly is so wrong with the idea of eugenics?

Why are you posting this on game development board?

Do you have no other place to go to?

From my experience these forums have a slightly higher percentage of rational users compared to most other places on the internet. Despite the occasional troll...

What exactly is so wrong with the idea of eugenics?

"Everyone is human, but some people are more human than others"
What bureaucracy do you trust to rate how human you are?

Eugenics conjures up imagery of genocide, or arranged marriage, or forced sterilisation, and so on, which are pretty hard to argue for. How about instead of using this unpleasant umbrella term, you actually describe the parts you think are necessary?
For example, it's possible these days to genetically alter your child's DNA pre-conception, to ensure a hereditary illness won't be passed on -- this could be called eugenics, but is quite different than secretly burning out someone's uterus with a hidden X-ray gun.

Inevitably this trend will lead to a massively over populated planet full of morons. With so many breeders and so few thinkers we will likely run in to a situation where there will be few resources and an almost endless number of mouths to feed. It will be normal to work 16 hours a day in order to buy enough rice to live and pay for a 7 by 4 foot bed shelf. This sounds a lot like china doesn't it?[/quote]That has nothing to do with genetics -- that's a question of society. How about we learn to raise and develop the existing "mutant children" properly (i.e. into 'thinkers' not 'breeders') first before erecting sterilization camps that don't actually solve the problem you're describing...


So what's wrong with it? It requires an arbitrary authoritarian bureaucracy to try to measure our humanity, and it doesn't actually solve the problems you're worrying about anyway. That does not sound like a good deal to me.

"Everyone is human, but some people are more human than others"
What bureaucracy do you trust to rate how human you are?

I don't trust any bureaucracy which is why I have been a strong supporter of an adhocracy or internet based government which will allow all individuals to have a say in their future.

Eugenics conjures up imagery of genocide, or arranged marriage, or forced sterilisation, and so on, which are pretty hard to argue for. How about instead of using this unpleasant umbrella term, you actually describe the parts you think are necessary?
For example, it's possible these days to genetically alter your child's DNA pre-conception, to ensure a hereditary illness won't be passed on -- this could be called eugenics, but is quite different than secretly burning out someone's uterus with a hidden X-ray gun.

I lived through an awful childhood in which my parents were clearly unable to take care of themselves let alone three children. At the hands of my parent's I was forced to endure beatings, starvation, filthy living conditions, and a complete lack of education or social interaction. There was also the thing where my father would masturbate next to me while I was sleeping but I'm not exactly sure what to call it...

I don't think it is right for people who have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old to be responsible for raising children. I am completely for sterilization of mentally handicapped individuals for this very reason. Just like someone who is considered a danger to society has their freedom taken away. Someone who will be a threat to their children's development should have the ability to reproduce taken away.

That has nothing to do with genetics -- that's a question of society. How about we learn to raise and develop the existing "mutant children" properly (i.e. into 'thinkers' not 'breeders') first before erecting sterilization camps that don't actually solve the problem you're describing...

So what's wrong with it? It requires an arbitrary authoritarian bureaucracy to try to measure our humanity, and it doesn't actually solve the problems you're worrying about anyway. That does not sound like a good deal to me.

A lot of people have developmental disorders which will prevent them from being educated no matter how much effort is put in to educating them. Without thinkers technology and progress will eventually come to a stand still. There simply won't be enough educated individuals to make anything happen. Currently the demand for skilled individuals is far higher than the supply. The most you can really make as an unskilled working in the US is about 20k/ year but with only a 4 year degree you could make up to 150k.

This is a huge difference and the reason companies can pay so much is because skilled employees are insanely valuable and rare. I'm not as worried about over population as much as I am about over population of mentally disabled individuals. This will create a huge division between the upper and lower classes which will result in complete anarchy and mass riots. Heck we are already stating to see this.

[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1327212098' post='4905040']
"Everyone is human, but some people are more human than others"
What bureaucracy do you trust to rate how human you are?

I don't trust any bureaucracy which is why I have been a strong supporter of an adhocracy or internet based government which will allow all individuals to have a say in their future.

Eugenics conjures up imagery of genocide, or arranged marriage, or forced sterilisation, and so on, which are pretty hard to argue for. How about instead of using this unpleasant umbrella term, you actually describe the parts you think are necessary?
For example, it's possible these days to genetically alter your child's DNA pre-conception, to ensure a hereditary illness won't be passed on -- this could be called eugenics, but is quite different than secretly burning out someone's uterus with a hidden X-ray gun.

I lived through an awful childhood in which my parents were clearly unable to take care of themselves let alone three children. At the hands of my parent's I was forced to endure beatings, starvation, filthy living conditions, and a complete lack of education or social interaction. There was also the thing where my father would masturbate next to me while I was sleeping but I'm not exactly sure what to call it...

I don't think it is right for people who have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old to be responsible for raising children. I am completely for sterilization of mentally handicapped individuals for this very reason. Just like someone who is considered a danger to society has their freedom taken away. Someone who will be a threat to their children's development should have the ability to reproduce taken away.

That has nothing to do with genetics -- that's a question of society. How about we learn to raise and develop the existing "mutant children" properly (i.e. into 'thinkers' not 'breeders') first before erecting sterilization camps that don't actually solve the problem you're describing...

So what's wrong with it? It requires an arbitrary authoritarian bureaucracy to try to measure our humanity, and it doesn't actually solve the problems you're worrying about anyway. That does not sound like a good deal to me.

A lot of people have developmental disorders which will prevent them from being educated no matter how much effort is put in to educating them. Without thinkers technology and progress will eventually come to a stand still. There simply won't be enough educated individuals to make anything happen. Currently the demand for skilled individuals is far higher than the supply. The most you can really make as an unskilled working in the US is about 20k/ year but with only a 4 year degree you could make up to 150k.

This is a huge difference and the reason companies can pay so much is because skilled employees are insanely valuable and rare. I'm not as worried about over population as much as I am about over population of mentally disabled individuals. This will create a huge division between the upper and lower classes which will result in complete anarchy and mass riots. Heck we are already stating to see this.
[/quote]

I've only known 7 , so this is just POV, but I have to say that elephants really do have excellent long term memories.

We create a race of super human geniuses.

Who empties the bins? Who works the farms? Who does all the jobs the 'clever' people are "above"?

I'm also pretty sure, and I've no study to back this up I admit, as intelligence increases so does a tendancy towards mental illness.

The problem isn't genetic, or is it a matter of 'thinkers' vs 'breeders' it is a problem of opportunity for education coupled with a tendancy for education and cleverness to be looked down upon as an 'uncool' thing in western society. (Not a new thing either, certainly when I was back in school it was considered 'cool' to not do your work or not turn up at all).

I lived through an awful childhood in which my parents were clearly unable to take care of themselves let alone three children. At the hands of my parent's I was forced to endure beatings, starvation, filthy living conditions, and a complete lack of education or social interaction.

So, in other words we should clearly prevent you from having any offspring, because you obviously come from a 'defective' family?


Or,... Try to keep up with me now as I make this radical shift in thinking... Maybe we could work on our social support systems, so that kids can be removed from such family environments and given the care and support they deserve?



As for giving "All individuals a say in their future", do you mean a pure democracy? Where everyone gets to vote on issues, and we go with majority rule? Great idea. But only picture this: me and my friend vote that supporting Eugenics should carry the death penalty. And guess what,... You're the only other guy in the room. "Democracy" is great! As long as you're not the minority.

Why not just fix out genes if they have problems? xP Were not too far from doing that... Though itll probably be illegal and only criminals get perfect genes...

[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1327212098' post='4905040']
"Everyone is human, but some people are more human than others"
What bureaucracy do you trust to rate how human you are?

I don't trust any bureaucracy which is why I have been a strong supporter of an adhocracy or internet based government which will allow all individuals to have a say in their future.
[/quote]

Wait, you want to put it all in the hands of the Internet? The same society that has 4chan, reddit, and so many other concentrated cesspools of idiocy? This crap just keeps getting better and better.

Eugenics is the fix offered by spoiled well off folks who have never had it really hard in life as a fix for the world's ills. It's there way of blaming the poor and downtrodden for being poor and downtrodden so that they don't have to look in the mirror and see the greedy faces of the real scourges of the planet.