I think this is more relative.

Running from the orphanage scene:
Vegard is daring, and willing to flaunt the authority that the carer has. He sneaks downstairs, and even when he knows the carer is still awake, he keeps going.

He takes the bread and sneaks back upstairs. When the carer is alerted to the presence, he runs back to his room, hides the bread quickly then listens at the door, ready to jump back into his and pretend to be asleep.

When he attacks James, for seemingly being about to hurt Osmond, he's quite relentless. He dislikes the carer, that's clear, but the fact he willingly assaults him, violently, says there's some deep seated problem in his personality.

What this says about Vegard as a child -
He's stealing food in a house already plagued by poverty. This shows that he doesn't seem to care about anyone else in the house, bar his brother whom he would've shared the food with.
So he's not very considerate of other people.
He's not respectful of the carer at all. He doesn't like him.
He thinks that if he doesn't get caught, there's nothing to worry about.
He's just a kid, breaking the rules.

-----

Osmond is more inclined to go to bed hungry than piss off the carer.

In the scene, Osmond sits in bed, obviously not tired. When Vegard gets up to start moving, he's concerned for him and afraid of the carer. He waits and worries as Vegard sneaks around downstairs.

When Vegard comes back, he calls him an idiot and waits to pretend to be asleep. When he realizes that the carer is yelling at a girl he likes for Vegards rule breaking, he doesn't wait for Vegard to intervene, knowing he has no troubles with someone else taking the rap.

He opens his door, and tries as bravely as possible to distract the carer from the girl. He's terrified by the outcome, and when James starts on him angrily, he's too scared to move.

Vegard doesn't care about the girl, but he cares about Osmond. He throws a pillow quickly at the mans face, and runs forward to hurt him in a place he knows is a weak spot. He kicks him in the head, another weak spot, which gives him a bit of a rush, and the brothers both know he's overstepped the line.

He calls for Osmond, and they run away together.

What this says about Osmond is that -
He's impulsive, and gets himself into shit he can't handle. Though, he'll avoid trouble if he can.

I worry, looking at all of it, that you can't challenging your characters. Challenge should occur at all levels.


If I were to boil it down to some rules:

-Challenges have to be hard.
--Knowns are not sufficiently hard. Hard things are things you're likely to fail at, that you don't know how to accomplish.
--Total bastards are easy to hate. Great people are easy to love. Don't make things easy.
--Plot challenges should play against the protagonist's personality.

e.g.

In my story the main character's ideal self is (based on her role model) stoic and leaderishly, while she actually has rather bad impulse control and when people start defering to her, she finds she doesn't respect them anymore.

(So it's not always that someone just is; they can also clash with their own idea of what's "good", which can also clash with everyone around them.)

The challenges from without, then, are crafted to play on the challenges from within. She likes to be in control? Make her plans blow up in her face. Doesn't respect submissiveness? Kill half the town, draft her into the mayor's seat, then have an anti-democracy movement that wants to throw her out for a Dear Leader.

EDIT: To clarify, plot challenges should play against the characters in ways that are not necessarily flattering.

I'm really all over the place at the moment

Here's what I've thought of for their time in the teenage gang.
In this part of their lives, they're introduced to fighting, murder, thievery and betrayal.
They join the gang, under the leadership of a teenager named Hart, as it's beginning to turn into more of an organization.
--
I won't go into too much detail, but after they run away from the Orphanage they're quickly inducted into a gang.
After a vicious induction, where the leader beats Vegard for showing the slightest bit of attitude, and terrifies Osmond, they're taken warmly under one teenagers wing.
This older teenager is called Andes. He acts as a mentor, and as a protector. He teaches them how to steal, and fight, and in their first brawl, he stabs and kills another boy to save Osmond.

Through this early period of gang life, a very young Osmond relies completely on Vegard for comfort. He has nightmares every night, and he feels deep regret for taking things that don't belong to him. He can only sleep in the same bed as Vegard to begin with, but he stops this shortly after he joins, to prove that he can be tough.

Vegard assimilation into this lifestyle is much easier. He gets excited by the prospect of stealing, and thinks nothing of it morally. Though he's embarrassed by Osmond's youth and weakness, and inability to act like a 'real gang member', he still cares for him. He comforts him as he sleeps, and tries to protect him from the other gang members and the opposing gang.

I think this is a fairly accurate portrayal of two impressionable kids, in a violent and exciting life.

Another key character in these years is the Soldier, I'll call him Jim for now.
Jim is a city guard, and patrols and watches over the central marketplace of the city.
The first day the brothers and Andes steal from a stall, he watches with interest. Andes distracts the shopkeeper with small talk, while they two boys walk up behind them, and try to inconspicuously to steal food. He's humorously impressed by their nerve and tact, but feels a little sorry for the hapless shopkeeper.

When they try the same trick, on a consecutive day, he makes his way to the alley they walked off into after their first thievery, and catches them as they run from the scene. He's impressed again as Andes tries to waylay him with a knife attack. After dispatching Andes with an unexpected display of Logi control, he takes the boys back to the shopkeeper where they're scolded and briefly smacked upside the head.

They meet up again with Andes, embarrassed by their failure and subsequent scolding. Andes tells them that they're lucky, and that he had his ass-kicked the first time he stole.

What I plan to do with the story, is go through the first week or so of acclimatizing, then skip forward to a point where they're so used to it that I can concentrate on their exploits.

Moving on. The night after the brothers fail to steal.
Hart and a group of older boys, quite drunk, venture out into the snowy night in search of excitement. In short, they taunt a couple of grown men into a fight, and get beaten and left bruised in the snow. This is terribly embarrassing for them, and Hart won't let it go until he gets back at them.

Not long after, a boy who takes pleasure in teasing Osmond tells Hart in passing conversation that Osmond was having a nightmare one night, and when he woke up, he screamed and there was a burst of fire.
Let's assume there's some sort of legend known by most people about those warriors chosen by Logi, and the fire powers they commanded.
Hart's skeptical, but curious. He approaches Osmond one night, while Vegard is there, and holds a piece of paper in front of him. He promises to be nice to Osmond if he 'lights it up' for him. Vegard is immediately troubled by the change of heart, and shakes his head quietly from behind Hart, so that Osmond can see. Hart notices Osmond looking behind him, and pushes Vegard and tells him 'playfully' to shut up. He turns to Osmond and tries to reassure him. Slowly, Osmond put the tip of his finger to the paper and lights it on fire. With this, Hart stands back and smiles, says thank you, and walks out.

A few days later, the brothers go with a uncommonly large group of boys, including Hart and Andes, to the house of the men that beat Hart and his company up.
They stop near the house, and once again Hart kneels to Osmond nicely. He holds up a bottle of spirits with a rag in it, and asks him to light it. Vegard realizes immediately what he wants to do with it, and shakes his head behind Hart again. Osmond, uncertain, asks why. Vegard keeps shaking his head, and Hart gets sick of it. He turns around and strikes Vegard, reminding him savagely to shut up. He turns back to Osmond, a little frenzied, and tells the terrified Osmond to light it. Osmond stutters, looking at Vegard lying hurt in the snow. Hart grabs him by the collar and lifts him up, and screams in his face for him to light the 'invented curse word' fire. In his absolute terror, little flames start igniting from Osmond's fingertips.

Finally, Andes intervenes. He reminds Hart desperately that he's just a kid. Hart drops Osmond, and before the two older teenagers can start a heated argument, an unknown voice calls out from a nearby alleyway.

Oops, went into detail.

Comments/Criticism welcome and appreciated.

Quite a nice guard you got there. I'm sure he is payed enough to "protect" the stalls as he does xD I am not sure such a person would act the way you described -- after all, they are being payed for protecting the stalls, no? If they fail, it's their financial loss. As a guard in such a place, with so many gangs about (as I have the impression there are many), the keepers should be more ruthless in "weeding out" the crime.

Also, do they not have lighters or anything that makes fire in that age? Why do they need Osmond specifically to light it? I thought they would make him burn his opponents -- instead he was nothing more than a match that is even easier stolen than food I guess. It's kind of artificially over-complicated IMO

Quite a nice guard you got there. I'm sure he is payed enough to "protect" the stalls as he does xD I am not sure such a person would act the way you described -- after all, they are being payed for protecting the stalls, no? If they fail, it's their financial loss. As a guard in such a place, with so many gangs about (as I have the impression there are many), the keepers should be more ruthless in "weeding out" the crime.

Also, do they not have lighters or anything that makes fire in that age? Why do they need Osmond specifically to light it? I thought they would make him burn his opponents -- instead he was nothing more than a match that is even easier stolen than food I guess. It's kind of artificially over-complicated IMO

I think the fact he makes Osmond do it is just a sick poke. Hart is a prick, see?

I'm not sure what to say about the guard. I suppose the reason he's not so hard on the brothers is because they're so young. You can be sure he'd let the older boy have it.
I think the guard's apparent unprofessional attitude is my attempt at humor.

What do you mean exactly by artificially over-complicated?

Edit:
Now i think about it, I'm making Hart too easy to hate. Be assured that he becomes more likable.
Edit #2:
Also, Osmond does eventually start using his power to fight.
Also! I've thought of a slightly different scenario for the guard.
'There's two of them watching the marketplace together. One notices the two children and teenager, and ss to the other 'Hey, look at this'. Such is there disdain for the state of the city, and the people who run it, that they just watch interestedly and comment on how young the children are turning to crime. Just a thought.
Edit #3:
I'm wondering if you mean artificially over-complicated in that i use conveniently occurring scenarios to get to where i want.

You can probably press ahead without validation from us... It occurs to me that a lot of work has to be done in light of other work, so for me to give anything more useful now I'd need to see the Big Picture, maybe even a full first draft. For example, I can't tell if someone is being characterized well early on if I can't see them in action longer term. I can't tell if the opening adequately characterizes the work and establishes the kind of trust you need in the reader. etc.

On a side note... One thing I do with my Trusted Reader is Google Docs. We write on Google Docs and we can see each other's works in progress.

It'll puke on very large works (>50k words) if your internet blows (mine does in Poland) but if you have a reader (do you?), it's a win.

"[color=#1C2837][size=2]I'm wondering if you mean artificially over-complicated in that i use conveniently occurring scenarios to get to where i want."
[color="#1C2837"][size=2]

[color="#1C2837"][size=2]I think it's OK to stretch some things.

Yeah, as Joe said, I thought everything was being already characterised and, well, fleshed out Without the true big picture and knowing the characters more, I can only judge what I read. Or rather not judge, but just plainly read and think over.

F.e. It occured to me later that Hart put Orson to a test -- you are WITH or AGAINST us, and this was a choice the boy had to make on his own, changing him from innocent to "part of the pack". If you give the reader too much to think about, they might short circuit, like I did And by "too much to think about", I mean ambiguity in the text and actions of characters not yet "whole".

In light of what you wrote and what I pondered upon, it is a question of explaining the characters well enough for them to be "in character" all the time. Things that are not set in stone we take for granted and tell ourselves according to the template embed in our minds (like I did with the guard).

Overall I can see you are really improving and starting to add some spice to the whole thing Very nice, keep it up!


EDIT: Offtopic -- I don't know about you, Joe, but the internetz is quite good here by the sea ^^ Maybe it's the salty air that keeps the dataz fresh

It was OK in Pozna? but in this part of Bydgoszcz it fellates bricks

You can probably press ahead without validation from us... It occurs to me that a lot of work has to be done in light of other work, so for me to give anything more useful now I'd need to see the Big Picture, maybe even a full first draft. For example, I can't tell if someone is being characterized well early on if I can't see them in action longer term. I can't tell if the opening adequately characterizes the work and establishes the kind of trust you need in the reader. etc.

On a side note... One thing I do with my Trusted Reader is Google Docs. We write on Google Docs and we can see each other's works in progress.

It'll puke on very large works (>50k words) if your internet blows (mine does in Poland) but if you have a reader (do you?), it's a win.

I'm looking at this google reader/docs dealy, but i'm not really sure how it works. My email is Jackson.Blair@live.com, I'm assuming i enter an email, and click follow, and I'll be able to see all the public works/updates etc.

Yeah, as Joe said, I thought everything was being already characterised and, well, fleshed out Without the true big picture and knowing the characters more, I can only judge what I read. Or rather not judge, but just plainly read and think over.

F.e. It occured to me later that Hart put Orson to a test -- you are WITH or AGAINST us, and this was a choice the boy had to make on his own, changing him from innocent to "part of the pack". If you give the reader too much to think about, they might short circuit, like I did And by "too much to think about", I mean ambiguity in the text and actions of characters not yet "whole".

In light of what you wrote and what I pondered upon, it is a question of explaining the characters well enough for them to be "in character" all the time. Things that are not set in stone we take for granted and tell ourselves according to the template embed in our minds (like I did with the guard).

Overall I can see you are really improving and starting to add some spice to the whole thing Very nice, keep it up! [/quote]

I can't thank you guys enough for the criticism, it helps so much.
Edit:
Feel free to add me on Google, would love to return the favor and read your own stories.