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Japan Nuclear Reactor

Started by March 15, 2011 03:13 AM
82 comments, last by owl 13 years, 10 months ago

It is different from the point of view of the insurance companies. That should really tell you everything you need to know, because those people basically breathe risk assessment. Besides, fossil fuels do have the same problem with risks that aren't widely discussed, as was seen in the Gulf of Mexico.

But that's a red herring anyway. This is not nuclear vs. fossil. It's nuclear vs. solar.


Well then it's simple. We don't have the area, production capability, or yield to replace all the power currently generated with solar power. Replacing nuclear with solar power leaves us with coal and fossil fuels which defeats the purpose of solar, so it makes sense to replace the non-nuclear non-renewable power plants with nuclear or renewable powerplants before we start worrying about which is better between nuclear and renewable.

Helicopters aren't dropping water onto the reactors - they're dropping water onto the cooling ponds used to store spent fuel rods (i.e. nuclear waste), which happen to be located on the roof of the reactor buildings. The ponds are either emptying through a leak or through evaporation, so are being refilled via hoses and helicopters. If the ponds run dry, the nuclear waste could be released into the atmosphere (as has already happened somewhat in building 4 where the waste may have been burning). These ponds are usually kept at 25ºC, but yesterday they were up to 60-80ºC (100ºC is boiling point for the Imperialists among us ;) )[/quote]
The pools don't all hold waste. The one at 4 is holding all the fuel rods from reactor 4 because it was shut down the week before for inspection. The fuel itself was never burning, as it is completely submerged in water; though there was a fire in the area. The cooling pond at 4 is the highest temperature right now (makes sense as it contains the most fuel).

After my morning readup, it looks like they are working on getting more power to the facility which will do a lot to help bring the cooling systems back online and refill the spent fuel ponds. The MIT site has a decent writeup on worst case stuff.
- Do we need it RIGHT NOW?
- Yes. Japan right now is importing 6GW of power to cover the needs and they still have reductions. That is only to compensate for the loss of 11 reactors, right now. And most of industry is shut down and several cities are completely off grid.

- "If it cannot be built today, can we arrange to build it tomorrow? Different wording: do we want to do research so this becomes possible in the short term? (short term is "a couple of years" in this case)"
- From first reactor to reliable commercial use it took 20 years. So something that is being used in small-scale prototype facilities (such as tidal plants) would take 10-20 years to put into practice. Governments move slowly, there isn't much way around it.
If fusion power plant started producing electricity today, it would take 20 years for large scale use. Anything that is not a prototype today doesn't count. We are not talking about improvements, but about replacing urgently needed infrastructure.

- How much energy output per year?
- Electricity cannot be stored. It's about peak matters. This is not coal mining, where you chip away, then put it slowly on a ship and bring it in in one load. Second problem is, demand changes during the day and grid needs to compensate. Electric plants ramp production up and down over the course of the day and infrastructure is built according to that. When wires a connected, their topology, transformers, etc. needs to be built around those facts.

- "How much uptime year?"
- 100%. Just like today. We are talking about replacement of existing nuclear plants, not bonus electricity. The absolute minimum that would return to previous absolutely needed minimum.

"How much money to run (maintainance)?"
How much money to build?
How much money to dispose?"
- Not a factor. If one source is no longer available, alternatives must be used regardless of price. If that means inflation of 20%, 15% increase in all prices, so be it. Look at Germany. The transition to solar and wind power bankrupted plenty of small- and mid-sized heavy consumers.

Any cost necessary, evaluate impact on GDP and growth as well as debt. Just remember the Tunisia, Egypt et al. Slight increase in food prices is one of most reliable predictors of civil unrest.

- "How long must be able to operate (technical life)? 20y? 40y? 60y?"
- Forever, with projected growth. We're not looking for temporary replacement, we're looking at shutting down all nuclear, replacing it with something else, then allowing for economic growth of same level.

- "Are CO2 emissions a problem?"
- I don't know. Are they? Are nuclear emissions a problem? It probably depends on scale.

"Do we want to consume little amount of terrain? How much?Do we need to centralize production? Perhaps we want a fleet of smaller, units instead?"
- Some of it probably needs to be located relatively close to large consumers.

- "How reliable must it be against earthquakes/hurricanes/terrorism?"
- Gee, I don't know. Earthquakes and hurricanes don't happen in Japan, do they? It probably needs to be safe from Godzilla.

"Do we need to cover base load or peak load?
Are we talking about day peak or year peak?
Do we need to route the energy to a specific section of the grid?"Replacing the existing nuclear infrastructure. So same numbers.

- "Do we need to move generator far away from consumption?
Is there any hazard to public health we are willing to accept? Is there the case to move this away from population?"
- Yes, there is a hazard for population. 20% of electricity is missing, hospitals are shut down, people can't boil water. Replace the power source now, so that people can start living again. Now. Nuclear is doing it right now - when will your alternative come?

- "How do we want to fund this? (government takes direct action)
Do we want to subsidize this? (private citizens takes direct action)
Are technical risks well known? Can we have sufficient guarantee issues will be promptly solved? (this is very much like risk assessment in SW development cycles)
Any economical risks?"
- You tell me. Convince me that your alternative is better.
Risks and costs of long-term large-scale deployment of anything except - hydro, coal and nuclear is not known. It takes 50-100 years to examine all risk in real world operation.


I asked a simple question. You are mayor of SimJapan. You need to replace 20% of nuclear power. Today, here and now. Your budget has a deficit, the economy has been stalled for decades, during last week you lost several hundred billion dollars.

What do you do?
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I asked a simple question. You are mayor of SimJapan. You need to replace 20% of nuclear power. Today, here and now. Your budget has a deficit, the economy has been stalled for decades, during last week you lost several hundred billion dollars.

What do you do?

Well we know if we hold kyoto for one year we can become shogunate. Then it's really just a matter of switching everything to auto-manage with a financial build policy.
Well, Japan has a population of 127,560,000.

A bicycle dynamo ran 1 hour per day during 30 days can generate up to 3000 wh thus if 6,666,666 persons ran a dynamo that amount of time they would be able to generate the 20 GW every 30 days.

Of course, this is a joke. :)
[size="2"]I like the Walrus best.

if 6,666,666 persons ran a dynamo that amount of time they would be able to generate the 20 GW every 30 days.


Or open a gateway to Hell. Your pick.

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This was touched on in another thread, but do you think after this tragedy passes/situation is under control, that Japan will ramp up in technological R & D and production? It seems the most poised to do so, given the amount of research already had. Plus that type of technology, would definitely help out --eventually-- when a similar catastrophe happens again (anywhere).

So do you think they'll have to bury the site or will they get the power line to the reactor in time?

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Or open a gateway to Hell. Your pick.


Then switch to geothermal.

[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1300462744' post='4787509']
Or open a gateway to Hell. Your pick.


Then switch to geothermal.
[/quote]
There's demons! Oh wait ... the gateway is using green technology. It's ok then, those demons must be good for the environment.

*done with derailment

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Do we get to sacrifice virgins to stop the gods from shaking the earth?
Latest project: Sideways Racing on the iPad

[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1300463025' post='4787511']
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1300462744' post='4787509']
Or open a gateway to Hell. Your pick.


Then switch to geothermal.
[/quote]
There's demons! Oh wait ... the gateway is using green technology. It's ok then, those demons must be good for the environment.

[/quote]

Not surprisingly, Japan is already prepared for that as well.

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