Count me as somebody who hates such shows. Obviously I don't expect them to introduce all characters from the start within each episode, but the whole season-spanning epic arc thing has gone too far in my opinion. As a rule, each episode should tell a self-contained story that can stand on its own. If it also advances the main season arc a little, even better. But give me something that makes sense as a stand-alone episode, and I'll be so much happier.

One very concrete problem of the epic season-spanning arc disease is that it causes many episodes to feel like filler. When the writers don't strive to make each episode something that is interesting as a self-contained story, then guess what, each episode isn't interesting. In fact, such shows often feel like the writers stretched a two-hour movie out to 20 episodes. That's just plain boring.

This thread is mostly about science fiction shows, but let me illustrate this with a different example anyway: Buffy. The first few seasons were a perfect blend of self-contained stories per episode, that also often advanced the main season arc. Then in the later seasons, they got epic arc disease, and the quality just went horribly downhill - at least for my taste. The first few seasons are full of memorable episodes, because the writers obviously tried to make each episode interesting in itself. In the later seasons, the memorable episodes are very, very rare. In my opinion, that's just sad.

I agree with you to a point, that an episode can't rely on every other episode in the season to not suck. But it's a hard balance to strike, because a single 44 minute episode is not much time to tell a story in the first place, let alone a self-contained story and then also part of a broader story. But there aren't many writers that can write a story that takes 16 hours to tell (a standard American season), so you get filler wherever they fail. On the other hand, it's hard to develop characters much in disjointed one hour bursts, so a multi-episode arc gives some room to tell a complete story that doesn't feel rushed.

[quote name='Wavarian' timestamp='1300001734' post='4785148']
PS: I wasn't happy about them cancelling Caprica though. I guess people hate shows that you can't just start watching from any random episode number and be able to understand what's going on.

Count me as somebody who hates such shows. Obviously I don't expect them to introduce all characters from the start within each episode, but the whole season-spanning epic arc thing has gone too far in my opinion. As a rule, each episode should tell a self-contained story that can stand on its own. If it also advances the main season arc a little, even better. But give me something that makes sense as a stand-alone episode, and I'll be so much happier.

One very concrete problem of the epic season-spanning arc disease is that it causes many episodes to feel like filler. When the writers don't strive to make each episode something that is interesting as a self-contained story, then guess what, each episode isn't interesting. In fact, such shows often feel like the writers stretched a two-hour movie out to 20 episodes. That's just plain boring.

This thread is mostly about science fiction shows, but let me illustrate this with a different example anyway: Buffy. The first few seasons were a perfect blend of self-contained stories per episode, that also often advanced the main season arc. Then in the later seasons, they got epic arc disease, and the quality just went horribly downhill - at least for my taste. The first few seasons are full of memorable episodes, because the writers obviously tried to make each episode interesting in itself. In the later seasons, the memorable episodes are very, very rare. In my opinion, that's just sad.
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This was something firefly and dollhouse both did great. They have great individual episodes and there is a story in the background. I think all great non-reality shows do this regardless of genre.

SGU was starting this way, but then it started losing it.

The show was DOA. Without a big movie tie-in, the IP was only going to shrink. To people who didn't watch previous shows, it's just 'another Stargate show'. Why would they watch this one if they hadn't watched the others? If this incarnation happened to be the best yet, then why use the IP at all? People would rather be involved in something new than 'a better version of a show they didn't watch'.

Obviously I don't expect them to introduce all characters from the start within each episode, but the whole season-spanning epic arc thing has gone too far in my opinion.

This is just an awkward transition. As the number of people who pick up shows mid-season and watch them on live TV approaches 0, this issue goes away. Of course, every episode still needs to be entertaining, just like every 10 minutes of a Die Hard movie needs an explosion.

The show was DOA. Without a big movie tie-in, the IP was only going to shrink. To people who didn't watch previous shows, it's just 'another Stargate show'. Why would they watch this one if they hadn't watched the others? If this incarnation happened to be the best yet, then why use the IP at all? People would rather be involved in something new than 'a better version of a show they didn't watch'.

The other stargates were pretty huge as far as sci fi tv shows go. The reason it failed is more likely that it deviated too far from the concept of what stargate was previously, which coincidentally didn't have the feel of the "big movie tie-in" it was tied to, just the back story.

This is just an awkward transition. As the number of people who pick up shows mid-season and watch them on live TV approaches 0, this issue goes away. Of course, every episode still needs to be entertaining, just like every 10 minutes of a Die Hard movie needs an explosion.
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What do you think the issue that is going away is? Epic story arc, or every episode having to stand alone? Some of the most popular series on tv don't have epic storylines, and that's probably why they were so successful and continue to be successful in reruns. The office, friends, frasier, family guy, Seinfeld, CSI, law and order, all the star treks etc.

I think the real trick is making it accessible to people who might have missed an episode or only vaguely know the concept of the show and still having a good backstory that grows with every episode. A lot of shows do this really really well. Dexter, firefly, and dollhouse are the first ones that come to mind. To use Dexter as an example, each season has a storyline, but compared to something like lost or the event you can miss a bunch of episodes and still be able to follow the show and be entertained.

edit: even if you look at stuff like friends or frasier, they'll even mix in story lines through their episodes and you can still follow and be entertained by an individual show.

Oops, wasn't too clear with that last bit. I meant that going forward people are going to be watching their TV on demand (hulu, whatever). So you can afford to go for a grander story, something that those 90s TV shows you mention couldn't do.

Kindof like music moving from radio to record. Instead of being limited to 3:30, artists had an entire LP to work with.

I'm not making judgment, just offering an explanation as to why this trend is happening now.

The only problem I ever had with Stargate: Universe is that the name implied something of epic proportions (e.g. oh, I don't know, the universe of Stargate?) and the show was anything but that. I watched Stargate because it was hilarious and had some novel ideas that it did a decent job of exploring (and the Asgard was in it. C'mon, how can't you like the Asgard?). Atlantis had a good solid cast and the wraith made a fine enemy - but I think the reason a lot of people disliked it was the "rip-off" feeling that it emitted; a re-portrayal of the original SG1 now set in a new galaxy!
SGU I only watched because of my high hopes of it getting better down the road (and seeing some familiar faces was nice). Also, this one I feel the need to clear up, whenever I see a comment such as this: "Wow!! SGU is amazing!! much better than the others - this shows got a realness and darkness to it!!!!!1111" I cringe and die inside - making a show 'dark' and 'real' (or gritty for that matter) has absolutely nothing with the subjective quality of good (although judging by the amount of comments that go like the one above, the general opinion might very well differ...). SG1 was always a light-hearted space action which made fun of itself while still staying semi-serious.
Think of it as the tv-show version of Red Alert 2 and you're on the right track..

SGU I only watched because of my high hopes of it getting better down the road (and seeing some familiar faces was nice). Also, this one I feel the need to clear up, whenever I see a comment such as this: "Wow!! SGU is amazing!! much better than the others - this shows got a realness and darkness to it!!!!!1111" I cringe and die inside - making a show 'dark' and 'real' (or gritty for that matter) has absolutely nothing with the subjective quality of good (although judging by the amount of comments that go like the one above, the general opinion might very well differ...). SG1 was always a light-hearted space action which made fun of itself while still staying semi-serious.

I actually think the tone of SGU was what made it interesting. They wanted to make a more human version of stargate that wasn't lighthearted. I definitely don't think making something dark or real makes it better, but I think in the case of SGU it did.

Where they got misguided I think was doing stupid things that have already been pointed out. The ely, senator daughter girl, military guy love triangle is dumb. Having the lucian alliance pop up so soon was also dumb. Had they focused more on the survival aspect or the passengers vs the ship vs the worlds they had to find stuff in I think it would have done well. SPOILER: the episode where they go to the planet and find the keno with all of them dying was a great episode for example.

I also liked the tension between rush and the captain. In the end it kind of fell into a too-much-too-fast feeling imo. Probably because it wasn't supposed to be an action show, and I'm guessing the producers realized that without action nobody was watching so they started coming up with more direct antagonists.

[quote name='DarklyDreaming' timestamp='1300113456' post='4785609']
SGU I only watched because of my high hopes of it getting better down the road (and seeing some familiar faces was nice). Also, this one I feel the need to clear up, whenever I see a comment such as this: "Wow!! SGU is amazing!! much better than the others - this shows got a realness and darkness to it!!!!!1111" I cringe and die inside - making a show 'dark' and 'real' (or gritty for that matter) has absolutely nothing with the subjective quality of good (although judging by the amount of comments that go like the one above, the general opinion might very well differ...). SG1 was always a light-hearted space action which made fun of itself while still staying semi-serious.

I actually think the tone of SGU was what made it interesting. They wanted to make a more human version of stargate that wasn't lighthearted. I definitely don't think making something dark or real makes it better, but I think in the case of SGU it did.

Where they got misguided I think was doing stupid things that have already been pointed out. The ely, senator daughter girl, military guy love triangle is dumb. Having the lucian alliance pop up so soon was also dumb. Had they focused more on the survival aspect or the passengers vs the ship vs the worlds they had to find stuff in I think it would have done well. SPOILER: the episode where they go to the planet and find the keno with all of them dying was a great episode for example.

I also liked the tension between rush and the captain. In the end it kind of fell into a too-much-too-fast feeling imo. Probably because it wasn't supposed to be an action show, and I'm guessing the producers realized that without action nobody was watching so they started coming up with more direct antagonists.
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I actually agree - a darker mood fits with the way they went about making SGU. Just like I don't want my Battlestar Galactica to play out like an episode of Stargate, Stargate Universe didn't have to be the light hearted "let's save the world!" SG1. The problem, AFAIK, is much the same as you pointed out - the plot simply seems dumb and forced ultimately. In it's very essence, the premise of the show seemed very promising - with a hint that a lot of the inner secrets of the universe would be revealed.


So far, the expectations haven't exactly been met. They started off good (except for Eli...who I have no idea why he was on that ship other than the five-second-scene of O'Neill telling him he won a game... which was a secret 'contest' ... which apparently makes him a genius able to solve a puzzle no one else can...), but got progressively worse to mediocre. SPOILER: the keno episode mentioned was killer - but that was buried among episodes of moaning crew members and stupid love plot (love plot would've been fine if it wasn't so contrived).


Rush and the captain, ah yes. That would've been truly interesting to see how it played out. In the end, I felt they overdid that aspect to the point where it felt 'old'. It's kind of how the joke about "how many times have we saved the world? I lost count!" in SG1 - before Teal'c corrects them (was 8? or 9? Whichever it was ). So while I felt SGU inevitably felt far too "rushed" in the story, I felt the complete opposite in Caprica - where the story was slow and progressive; eventually leading up to the Season 2 "trailer" they played at the end (which was basically a cool montage; and yes god damn it, that was a trailer because at the very end it said "Caprica Season 2.0 Coming Soon" or somesuch!). Season 2 would've had a lot more robocalypse, a lot less teenage drama as I am sure a lot of fans of the old BSG felt. Some justified... some not so much - especially not the ones cheering for more 'splosions...)

EDIT: for those interested, and who don't mind spoilers, the ending of Caprica can be seen here:

So while I felt SGU inevitably felt far too "rushed" in the story,

BADUM TISH

Hard to believe people are ranting about a STARGATE spin-off getting axed (not that the OP made it very clear I thought SGU was some graphics convention for the first couple of posts). It's trashy pop-sci-fi, fun but stupid.

I agree about Firefly, but seriously how long ago was that... time to move on. Or just keep watching the series over and over like a weirdo.