TLDR (short) version:

Sandbox MMORPGs offer unparalleled freedom and depth of gameplay. The reason they have not been as succesfull as Themepark MMORPGs is not due to a problem with the concept of Sandbox MMORPGs but due to poor presentation, design, and implementation. Sandbox MMORPGs need to be as accessible, or more, than their successful Themepark counterparts.

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Full version:

There have been many articles written on the topic of sandbox MMORPGs, their advantages and disadvantages, and with comparison to their antithesis, theme park MMORPGs. I am no expert on game design however I feel I have something to add to the topic which I have not seen expressed before in any such articles, namely on the subject of perceived problems with sandbox.

Firstly, what is a sandbox MMORPG? Simply put it is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game where the player is given certain gameplay elements which they can use in a flexible way as they see fit. These elements non-exclusively include things such as gathering and crafting, shapeable environment, Player vs. Player (PvP), and Player vs. Environment (PvE). PvP is usually a major element due to the extremely rich variety of depth of potential interactions possible. These games tend to have skill based character progression. Such games include but are not exclusive to EvE Online, pre-trammel Ultima Online, pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies, and Darkfall Online.

I mentioned also theme park games in the opening paragraph. A theme park MMORPG is a game that essentially runs on rails. The gameplay content includes but is not exclusive to, gathering and crafting, PvP and PvE. Notice the poignant absence of shapeable environment... The players are not allowed to use these gameplay elements as they see fit. Instead there are very strict hardcoded rules as to what can and can't be done, and players are almost always guided as to what to do and when to do it. Character progression is usually level based. Such games include but are not exclusive to World of Warcraft, Everquest, Runes of Magic, and countless other clones. It is worth noting that two very notable games that used to be classed as almost paragons of sandbox have now adopted a much more theme park style, namely Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies...

What are the advantages of Sandbox MMORPGS? The advantages to such game are essentially, freedom, flexibility, and depth. This can lead to an exhilarating and deeply satisfying gameplay experience beyond what can be achieved in theme park MMORPGs. Having a lot of options open to you, all of which have depth and interconnectivity to each other can make a player feel really immersed in and excited by the game world. Stories of player intrigue, politics, wars, and epic battles are common place. Sometimes, as in EvE, these stories can make mainstream news headlines. Crafting is usually very meaningful and players can chose to make it their main occupation. And let me tell you a story about exploration and shapeable environment in such games in the next paragraph...

I tried Darkfall Online the other day, and at first I was a bit lost in what seemed to me a very large, complex, unfamiliar and unfriendly world. But for the first time in I don't remember how long I was actually excited by a game! But I did need some guidance and so I joined a player guild. They were very kind and gave me equipment, a mount, and a basic intro to essential mechanics such as banking and the finer aspects of controlling my character. Then they told me to head to their player built hamlet far away to the north. They told me a few towns I should head to on the way, and that eventually I would reach a stone hill with a lake carved into it. In the walls of the lake there was a cave. I should head into the cave, and swim along it until I got to a waterfall... I should allow myself to drop off the waterfall and thus I would find their hidden settlement, complete with player built housing, shops, etc... I eagerly undertook this quest, for an epic quest it was. I travelled for two days (we're talking real time here) losing my mount half way, and having to run the rest of the way, amazed by the beauty of the landscape and eluding its dangers. It was not easy, but for the first time in any game, I actually felt like a character in a book, really felt it. When I got to the hamlet it surpassed my expectations. Darkfall Online took me back to that long lost feeling I used to have when playing games as child, unjaded. None of the advantages mentioned in this paragraph could be achieved in theme park style MMORPGs; they have no real sense of adventure, very little flexibility, and a pretty meaningless gameplay experience.

Now, what are the problems with sandbox MMORPGs? Why are they a relatively unsuccessful design when they can offer such amazing experiences? I put it to you that there are no inherent problems or disadvantages to sandbox games. I put it to you that the sandbox concept for games is perfect. It is a valid concept which can be realistically implemented, and which has a lot potential fun attached to it, with no inherent downsides. I put it to you that the reason sandbox games are relatively unsuccessful is because there are little to no sandbox games that have been properly designed and implemented. The fault is the developers fault, not the concept itself.

Usually people say that most people can't handle too much freedom, that most people need a lot of hand holding and direction because otherwise people won't know what to do and will get bored, and that the harshness of PvP interactions will alienate most people. I will only grant the validity of the last point. Truly open PvP can only ever appeal to those that enjoy PvP, and certainly not everyone enjoys PvP. However I strongly refute the validity of the other points. People enjoy freedom, and only enjoy freedom. The more freedom a player has the more they will enjoy their game, even if they aren't interested in 99% of the options available to them, they will enjoy the game more, simply because of the excitement such a plethora of meaningful options provides, and because it will make their choice all the more meaningful. What people don't enjoy however is being overwhelmed with information... Also people don't enjoy being left without a clear and concise clue as to what might be fun/good/best for them to do next and how to actually do it... These factors are of paramount importance. But the successful consideration of these points is not exclusive to theme park games! Sandbox games can take them into account too! And if these points are taken into account in a sandbox game, then the generally perceived "disadvantages to sandbox mmorpgs" disappear!

For an illustrative example of some of the points in the above paragraph let me tell you why I for example don't play Darkfall despite the truly amazing experience I had with it... It's because overall it’s a terribly made game! It fails badly on the basics. The character control is extremely clunky. There is no easy way to find out how to actually play the game. There is absolutely no hint as to what you might enjoy doing. They don't have a decent communication interface. Even the weakest mobs are too strong for a good player with a starter character. And things essential to surviving in such a harsh environment like for example finding the bank so you don't lose all your stuff when you die are almost impossible to do unless you are in a small town that is therefore possible to explore in minute detail, or you already know where the bank is! And I think this kind of thing is what hurt UO and SWG so badly, not the fact their game had amazing freedom and interactivity, but the fact they failed to implement any kind of user friendliness, something that is perfectly possible in a sandbox game. People might counter that "well in real life you don't get a flashing icon on your minimap telling you where the bank is". Who cares about real life in a game? Sandbox games aren't exclusively simulators; they are first and foremost games. And games are meant to be fun, right from the word go, all the way till you chose to stop playing in satisfaction, or at least, they have to be if they want to succeed on a massively multiplayer scale...

Would it be so hard to make sure basic and essential stuff such as character control was smooth and easy to learn? Would it be so hard to have a variety of enjoyable tutorial quests that the player can choose from to learn different game mechanics they are interested in? Would it be so hard to have a decent communication interface?! Would it be so hard to have some comprehensive content available to truly N.O.O.B characters that they can actually take part in with enjoyment? Would it be so hard to make it painless for players to find what they absolutely must find just to play? Judging by past sandbox MMORGs apparently so, but I put it to you that it's not difficult. It’s a must for any game, and can be achieved for any game. And if you don't manage to do that you haven't made a game, you've just made a big, steaming pile of mess which relatively few people will waste their time playing, never mind paying for. So, get to it

What people don't enjoy however is being overwhelmed with information...[/quote]
Your own quote, taken a bit out of context, but you should definitely press "Enter" more often to avoid the (almost literal) wall of text.


That being said, I agree with almost every point you make. Specifically, Sandbox mmos are fun because of that sense of excitement that often lacks in what I think you appropriately called "theme-park mmorpgs". And while that is true, I want to point out that a carefully crafted storyline, even if mostly, or entirely, linear, could also be incredibly entertaining. I think the problem with the carefully crafted storyline is that, since so much effort needs to be put into it, only a few exist, and are repeated by everyone. I think they're just two different types of games, often made different by limitations of resources (after all how many indie game companies have the ability to do several full-blown cutscenes of the different ways an event could go? (akin Mass Effect))

Anyway, the other point you make that I don't completely agree with is

Also people don't enjoy being left without a clear and concise clue as to what might be fun/good/best for them to do next and how to actually do it...[/quote]
I cite the case of Minecraft, the ever so much increasing in popularity sandbox, kind of mmo-ish, not really RPG (try saying that three times fast). The game gives you absolutely no clue as to what to do. It won't even teach you the basics. Besides lacking an intro, it also lacks a definition of what's 'fun' to do. It's different for almost every person who's tried it, and they all have different ideas of fun. What I think is important is that the game gives you the tools to have almost any goal, and still have fun.

Anyway, my rant's getting too big now, so, the end.

What people don't enjoy however is being overwhelmed with information...

Your own quote, taken a bit out of context, but you should definitely press "Enter" more often to avoid the (almost literal) wall of text.[/quote]

Yeah, I agree I've made walls of text in that post, but I'm not sure where to put the paragraph breaks in. :/ Thanks for the reply and taking the time to read all that btw

EDIT: managed to break it up into more paragraphs. Hopefully its a bit easier to read now

EDIT 2: made a TLDR version at the top of the OP

And while that is true, I want to point out that a carefully crafted storyline, even if mostly, or entirely, linear, could also be incredibly entertaining. I think the problem with the carefully crafted storyline is that, since so much effort needs to be put into it, only a few exist, and are repeated by everyone. I think they're just two different types of games, often made different by limitations of resources (after all how many indie game companies have the ability to do several full-blown cutscenes of the different ways an event could go? (akin Mass Effect))[/quote]

Aye absolutely, a game with a great storyline that comes to mind is KOTOR. Just as immersive as any Sandbox could be or more. And the variety of choices, both quest and story wise give plenty sense of freedom. A calssic game, and one of my favourites of all time. However it is not an MMORPG and it doesn't offer as much freedom or dpeth of gameplay as a sandbox game could. And even SWTOR which is touted to be like KOTOR but MMORPG style, will not have the same level of freedom and depth of gameplay that sandbox games can offer.

Anyway, the other point you make that I don't completely agree with is

Also people don't enjoy being left without a clear and concise clue as to what might be fun/good/best for them to do next and how to actually do it...[/quote]
I cite the case of Minecraft, the ever so much increasing in popularity sandbox, kind of mmo-ish, not really RPG (try saying that three times fast). The game gives you absolutely no clue as to what to do. It won't even teach you the basics. Besides lacking an intro, it also lacks a definition of what's 'fun' to do. It's different for almost every person who's tried it, and they all have different ideas of fun. What I think is important is that the game gives you the tools to have almost any goal, and still have fun.

Anyway, my rant's getting too big now, so, the end.[/quote]

IMO Minecraft is a sandbox, but its not a GAME... A true SANDBOX (as opposed to a Sandbox Game) doesn't need any clues as to what to do because the concept and gameplay is extremely simple. Just like in Lego. You stick things together and that's it. You get the sand now go play with it. That's all there is to it and that's all it really needs.

A Sandbox GAME though does need clues and some instructions because there are many different gameplay mechanics which the user cannot guess at. The user NEEDS to be introduced to them. Not doing so is like expecting a user to spam the keys on his keyboard to figure out how to open his inventory or control his char, or guess that there's a bank he can store his stuff at, etc... Sure a percentage of users will figure it all out, but its counterproductive, lazy, ridiculous, and terrible design. If Themepark Games need to introduce and facilitate basic gameplay mechanics in order to be truly successful, so do Sandbox Games! So does any Game!

The Sandbox nature of games is not that they are badly designed mess! Its that they offer freedom and depth of gameplay... Telling new users, on a want to know basis, how to control their chars, get started with crafting, etc, does not limit that freedom and depth of gameplay, it simply makes it accessible! Sandbox games don't need to be innaccessible! Quite the opposite..

Yeah, I agree, there's not much in minecraft to make it a traditional game. I'm not actually a fan of the game myself, I lost interest after a short while, mostly because I had exhausted all the game mechanics, and that's the only thing that drove the game for me.

So, this actually poses a question, what constitutes a 'game'? When is a sandbox experiment become a game, and are the 'sandbox' and 'game' aspects of a video game working against each other? (i.e. more 'game' you have, less 'sandbox' it is, and vice versa). I'm not actually going to really try to define either, because theoretical discussion like that can eat time away from me doing other things - like working on my terrain.

Take the example of my OP...

It's actually kind of hard to reply to your post unless you disagree with something, and even then, a lot of it would just break down into a debate of shemantics. One of the reasons that I took time to read your post is because sandbox type games hold a lot of personal interest for me.

I'm kind of looking for a distraction atm so I will try and define that But you are right, it mostly is semantics.

A Sandbox is literally just that, an environment you can play and make things with.

A Sandbox Game is that to some extent, PLUS other tools you can also play with and use in a flexible way. Such as combat and AI controlled environment

Minecraft does not have many additional tools, and therefore I would class it as much closer to a Sandbox than a Sandbox Game.

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As to what there is new or controversial in my post worth commenting on... well, I would crystalize it thus: The Sandbox MMORPG concept is perfect, and the only problem with past implementations is that too many fundamental mechanics of the game were badly designed and not accessible enough.

The above might not on the face of it seem very comment worthy, controversial, or new, but why then have those mistakes been repeated for every Sandbox MMORPG so far?! I can't imagine it being an impossible or even improbable extra effort to implement smooth versions of basic mechanics, and want to know introductions to said mechanics.

Well, that's a definition.

As for why these mistakes are common: one, I have no clue if they really are common, or if the developers would consider them mistakes, two, I doubt it's impossible to 'fix' them, and three, you should try it yourself before commenting on it's difficulty. That last part is important, because as anyone who's ever tried to make a video game has found out, not all things are as simple as they might seem.

Y'know, just sayin'.

As for why these mistakes are common: one, I have no clue if they really are common

Well, if you'll take it from me, I've tried many and all Sandbox MMORPGs I know of, and they all suffer from these issues.

or if the developers would consider them mistakes[/quote]

If not, why not?

two, I doubt it's impossible to 'fix' them[/quote]

Agreed.

and three, you should try it yourself before commenting on it's difficulty. That last part is important, because as anyone who's ever tried to make a video game has found out, not all things are as simple as they might seem.[/quote]

Oh, I plan to. But first I'm working on a graphics engine.

Ok, I can take your word for it, and I did, I was just ... erm, speaking from personal experience? Also there are a few cases of developers calling things 'features' despite them actually being flaws, or even straight up bugs.

And, yeah, I wasn't ragging on you, you certainly make good points, I just got back from reading a thread from an 'idea guy' posted recently, and that stuck with me. I still can't believe that thread exists... anyway. Yes, I speak out of turn too, despite not having tried out everything I comment on. Can't really blame me, but it certainly makes your opinion more worthy once you've done it for yourself. Also, ditto on the gfx/game engine.(shameless self-advertising)

I feel that a lot of sandbox games aren't as popular as Theme Park games because of users. It takes a certain person to really enjoy something like a Sandbox game. Just like it takes another person to enjoy something like Minecraft. They sort of make their own game out of it. I think most people are just used to being "on the rails" from years of that sort of game-play.


Always looking for vending machines and joysticks...

Very nice post. I cart help but agree with almost all of your points on thematter. Personally i have tried a few "Sandbox Games" since i startedplaying MMOGs (Darkfall, EvE Online and Mortal Online are the ones that standout) and all have suffered from the issues you talked about. I think it is nocoincidence that the most popular of these, EvE Online, is the one that has thestrongest tutorial section, from my experiences, and general the most playerfriendly approach to its design. Having said that it was not that long ago nowthat EvE also felt just as unfriendly as other sandbox MMOGs.

This may be harsh but i do think it is down to developers that the sandboxMMORPGs are nowhere near as popular as their theme park MMORPGcounterparts. It seems that the idea of a "realistic" MMORPG goeshand in hand with it being exceptionally harsh to new players, at least in thedesigners mind. There seems to be some confusion between making a game easy andgiving strong support to new and maybe even old, players when they firstventure into the world. For both Darkfall and Mortal i remember having tosearch forums as-well as Youtube to find out even the most basic aspects of thegame. The player base, as RPG pointed out, also seems to be part of the problembut i can’t help but feel that it is the designers that cause the players tobecome like this than the other way around.

As for Minecraft the lack of a tutorial was the one criticism i had of it.Although there is a solid community and wiki that meant it wasn't"necessarily" needed but it still took me longer than i liked to figureout elements like crafting. The same has been true of the people i introducedit to, every single one has asked for help figuring out the initial gamemechanics.

Anyway I'll stop there didn't want to rant to much especially on my firstpost