I remember what this priest said once: -Bla.

I'll never forget that.

I'm against this guilt-filled version of Chistianity, perpetuated mainly by Paul. We're human and we have our flaws, big flaws. From there on, I don't want to spend the rest of my life crying out "o God, how unworthy I am! Nothing I do or say matters, I'm just made of crap from the beginning and really, I should be destroyed right now". I'm just as God made me sir! If we're all so unworthy then ok, let's all go to hell then. God sent Jesus, and all the other prophets to earth, so he obviously thinks we're worthy of salvation.

It's interesting, however, how often that was exactly the response of people who hung around with Jesus: e.g. when Jesus helps Peter catch a huge haul of fish, his reaction is to cry "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord"

To recognise that we deserve nothing is definitely not to say that nothing I do or say matters - far from it! Knowing how much I've been forgiven, how gracious God has been, is a huge motivator to then get out there and share that forgiveness and love with others.

As I read it, the Bible is quite explicit that God's salvation is not because I'm "worthy" of it, but simply because God is generous and wants to forgive people who are totally UNworthy. e.g. when Israel is about to go in to the promised land, right after God has told them they're to be his chosen people, he says "It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all people, but it is because the Lord loves you" and then a bit later "Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people".

The same idea is repeated in the New Testament in passages like Ephesians 2: "so that no one may boast".

It's interesting, however, how often that was exactly the response of people who hung around with Jesus: e.g. when Jesus helps Peter catch a huge haul of fish, his reaction is to cry "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord"

To recognise that we deserve nothing is definitely not to say that nothing I do or say matters - far from it! Knowing how much I've been forgiven, how gracious God has been, is a huge motivator to then get out there and share that forgiveness and love with others.

As I read it, the Bible is quite explicit that God's salvation is not because I'm "worthy" of it, but simply because God is generous and wants to forgive people who are totally UNworthy. e.g. when Israel is about to go in to the promised land, right after God has told them they're to be his chosen people, he says "It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all people, but it is because the Lord loves you" and then a bit later "Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people".

The same idea is repeated in the New Testament in passages like Ephesians 2: "so that no one may boast".

I the Lord test the mind
and search the heart, to give to all according to their ways,
according to the fruit of their doings.
[/quote]

I'm not saying we are 'worthy' of anything. I don't know why am I worthy of being alive and well and have a house under my head, when there are ill children in institutions that are living hell on earth as we speak. I don't view salvation as a 'reward' for being 'good'. For once, I don't care much about 'heaven' either; I don't know what it is or what purpose does it serve, or even if there is such a place alltogether. I'm just not very much fond of being ridden with guilt without knowing why, either. Otherwise, as I said, it's all just a lottery? Why God "loved" the Israelites if they were no different than all other nations?

If noone deserves nothing, then God will either give salvation to EVERYONE, or NOONE. Why would He give it just to Bob, and not Dave, if both Bob and Dave deserve equally nothing? And how a JUST God gives something to people that deserve nothing? In John's Revelation, he says it explicitly: "[color="#010000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work[/font]". And he himself parallelized people with trees that can bear good or bad fruits, didn't he? And he said "You are the salt of the Earth. You are the light of the world". That last one seems like a pretty big praise, doesn't it?

You can't 'buy' your way out with good deeds, that's for sure, and you shouldn't boast about anything, but what I'm talking about is something different.

I'm against this guilt-filled version of Chistianity, perpetuated mainly by Paul. We're human and we have our flaws, big flaws. From there on, I don't want to spend the rest of my life crying out "o God, how unworthy I am! Nothing I do or say matters, I'm just made of crap from the beginning and really, I should be destroyed right now".

I don't understand "guilt-filled version of Christianity". I think you're over-exaggerating.

I'm just as God made me sir!

Actually, you're not as God made you. You've got an extra piece in you that God didn't put there.

As for the "problem" of the babies, see what we have done? We have imposed to the faith all those whimsical rules and regulations that we do not know innocence when we see it. Has a baby eaten from the Tree of Knowledge yet? Does it feel ashamed of its nakedness? Gah...

I don't get the point of what you're saying here. Of course a baby doesn't have the capability of understanding good and evil. It is innocent. The problem is, a baby doesn't stay that way, due to man's inherent sin nature. As was said, you don't have to teach a baby to do wrong. It comes naturally. That's the whole issue.

I don't view salvation as a 'reward' for being 'good'.

No Christian does.

For once, I don't care much about 'heaven' either; I don't know what it is or what purpose does it serve, or even if there is such a place alltogether.

So you don't believe the Bible?

I'm just not very much fond of being ridden with guilt without knowing why, either. Otherwise, as I said, it's all just a lottery?

You don't need to be, nor should you be, ridden with guilt. I don't get why you feel you should be.

Why God "loved" the Israelites if they were no different than all other nations?

Because Christ, as a human, came from them. He could have just as easily picked another race.

If noone deserves nothing, then God will either give salvation to EVERYONE, or NOONE. Why would He give it just to Bob, and not Dave, if both Bob and Dave deserve equally nothing?

He has given it to everyone. The problem is, a gift has to be received and opened for it to be useful. If I come to your birthday party and give you a gift, but wrap it with paper that you don't find attractive so you decide to not open it, what good does it do you? Christianity is not attractive to man:

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.




Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And how a JUST God gives something to people that deserve nothing?

That's called grace.

In John's Revelation, he says it explicitly: "[color="#010000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work[/font]". And he himself parallelized people with trees that can bear good or bad fruits, didn't he? And he said "You are the salt of the Earth. You are the light of the world". That last one seems like a pretty big praise, doesn't it?

It's not praise, it's a responsibility. We as Christians have the task of showing God to those that don't know him:


Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

You can't 'buy' your way out with good deeds, that's for sure, and you shouldn't boast about anything, but what I'm talking about is something different.

What is it you're talking about. I must need another cup of coffee this morning because I'm just not getting it. Help me out.

It's no longer really a Christian nation and the rampant materialism of this country is a hindrance to salvation.

When was it ever?

What is it you're talking about. I must need another cup of coffee this morning because I'm just not getting it. Help me out.

I'm talking about what has always been bugging me. I'm just going to offer an example. Say a poor muslim couple goes out to an orphanage and picks an ill kid to adopt, say with Down's syndrome or something like that, and they dedicate their life to raise it. A hard choice that not very many would make, but they do it. And they spend their life raising that kid, worshipping God and loving and helping others, not to 'buy' themselves a ticket to "Heaven", but because they feel like it. Because they have love. At the end of their lives, you're saying that they're going to meet God, and they're going to be punished, because they didn't worship the right version of God? That's what they have been tought. All of us can only worship what we have been tought. Had I been born in an Arab country, that's what I would do too, and I don't kid myself saying otherwise; I am a Christian mainly because my country accepted Christianity as its main religion many hundreds of years before I was born. That's a situation my mind can't reconcile. That's all I'm saying.

And they spend their life raising that kid, worshipping God and loving and helping others, not to 'buy' themselves a ticket to "Heaven", but because they feel like it.

The world looks at a couple who devote their lives to raising a disabled kid or something and calls that "good". But look at it from another angle: they lived their lives doing what they felt like. Explicitly in your example, you've said that they weren't motivated by a desire to please God, but because it seemed good to them to live that way. Well, that's the very definition of sin in the Bible, even if coincidentally their choice of "what they felt like" happened to seem very "moral".

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1297952275' post='4775396']
And they spend their life raising that kid, worshipping God and loving and helping others, not to 'buy' themselves a ticket to "Heaven", but because they feel like it.

The world looks at a couple who devote their lives to raising a disabled kid or something and calls that "good". But look at it from another angle: they lived their lives doing what they felt like. Explicitly in your example, you've said that they weren't motivated by a desire to please God, but because it seemed good to them to live that way. Well, that's the very definition of sin in the Bible, even if coincidentally their choice of "what they felt like" happened to seem very "moral".
[/quote]

Okay man, whatever, erase my previous phrase and substitute it with "they did it to please God". Seems I don't know when love is "good" and when it's a sin. So, what happens then? Take my example and think they did it to please God(or Allah). What happens then.

Okay man, whatever, erase my previous phrase and substitute it with "they did it to please God". Seems I don't know when love is "good" and when it's a sin. So, what happens then? Take my example and think they did it to please God(or Allah). What happens then.

at the end of the day, I think the hard truth is that however great and moral and good we may look (and what a wonderful example of goodness that would be if they did spend their lives that way, loving that kid!) we still can never make ourselves good enough for God - the standard is absolute 100% perfection, a level of goodness we can never attain to. Even in the example of such a loving couple, can you honestly imagine that they're never going to have days where they feel frustrated at their child, at one another, where there's never going to be a harsh word spoken when they're tired? Just as Peter knew that it was impossible for a sinful man like him to stand in the presence of a holiness like that of Jesus, when we finally meet God and stand before him we will KNOW that he's too pure for us to stand. We simply cannot make ourselves good enough, however we try.

The ONLY hope is if we're judged on the merits of another person in our place - a substitute, like Jesus, the one who was sinless and pure and who COULD stand before God and be vindicated.

So ultimately is it fair for God to judge that couple, despite all their loveliness and goodness? As hard as it is to say it, the Bible says yes. Not because they had a few facts wrong about God, "a wrong version of God" as you put it. But because deep down they're also deeply flawed human beings who aren't as perfectly lovely and good as first appear.