Is that your entire reasoning? The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines punishment as "[font="sans-serif"]the imposition of something that is intended to be burdensome or painful, on a supposed offender for a supposed crime, by a person or body who claims the authority to do so."[/font]

[font="sans-serif"]I do not have the power to send myself to hell. I'm trying right now, but I'm still sitting in this chair. If I am to end up in hell, it can only be because an entity external to myself rerouted my soul so as to end up in hell, since I myself cannot seem to control wherever it's hurdling towards right now[/font]

Well that's not how I view it. To be quite honest, I don't think someone who clearly doesn't understand the beliefs of people in the faith defines the faith, and I'm ok with that. Keep thinking that God's ultimate goal is to punish people for all I care. It's just not true, no matter how many times you say it. God's ultimate goal is to bring us our salvation. Being in the middle of lent, all you would have had to do is go to a church for 6 weeks out of the 52 in a year and you would know this.


You gave 5 verses in scripture out of context, some of which were the same event.

Here are 125 on salvation: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=salvation&version1=31&searchtype=all
Perhaps you could look into the parables: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus
Or maybe try reading any of the four gospels in full:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=NIV

Like I said before, if you do that and you still think God is hell bent on punishing people then you must be reading a different bible or just turning pages without reading. Even as Jesus was being tortured and killed he was granting people salvation and asking for their forgiveness.

Well that's not how I view it. To be quite honest, I don't think someone who clearly doesn't understand the beliefs of people in the faith defines the faith, and I'm ok with that. Keep thinking that God's ultimate goal is to punish people for all I care. It's just not true, no matter how many times you say it. God's ultimate goal is to bring us our salvation. Being in the middle of lent, all you would have had to do is go to a church for 6 weeks out of the 52 in a year and you would know this.

Like I said before, if you do that and you still think God is hell bent on punishing people then you must be reading a different bible or just turning pages without reading. Even as Jesus was being tortured and killed he was granting people salvation and asking for their forgiveness.

What makes you believe in the Biblical God to begin with? Stop fucking bumping this bullshit thread up.

God the way you understand it does not exist. One day you WILL come to realize that fact.

The END.

OneThreeThreeSeven, please don't hate me for posting this but it's a legit question and I want to see what people think.

Why is it that things become so blown out of proportion when we discuss the existence of God or Gods? I understand that it is making people's belief (whether strong or faded) even more so vulnerable but why can't we ponder as mathematicians, scientists, artists, philosophers, and so forth? Why can't we look at it like some complicated and unanswered equation? Why don't we use our minds instead of the sting of the tongue and the lunge of the sword? One gets somewhere at least (hint, it's the mind).

Sure, we might not stumble across the ultimate answer on a game dev forum but can it not be more civil?

What makes you believe in the Biblical God to begin with? Stop fucking bumping this bullshit thread up.

I've already said why in this thread, and if you don't want it bumped it is both stupid to bump it as well as stupid to ask someone a question then tell them not to bump it.

[quote name='nilkn' timestamp='1303531885' post='4801837']
Is that your entire reasoning? The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines punishment as "[font="sans-serif"]the imposition of something that is intended to be burdensome or painful, on a supposed offender for a supposed crime, by a person or body who claims the authority to do so."[/font]

[font="sans-serif"]I do not have the power to send myself to hell. I'm trying right now, but I'm still sitting in this chair. If I am to end up in hell, it can only be because an entity external to myself rerouted my soul so as to end up in hell, since I myself cannot seem to control wherever it's hurdling towards right now[/font]

Well that's not how I view it. To be quite honest, I don't think someone who clearly doesn't understand the beliefs of people in the faith defines the faith, and I'm ok with that. Keep thinking that God's ultimate goal is to punish people for all I care. It's just not true, no matter how many times you say it. God's ultimate goal is to bring us our salvation. Being in the middle of lent, all you would have had to do is go to a church for 6 weeks out of the 52 in a year and you would know this.


You gave 5 verses in scripture out of context, some of which were the same event.

Here are 125 on salvation: http://www.biblegate...&searchtype=all
Perhaps you could look into the parables: http://en.wikipedia....rables_of_Jesus
Or maybe try reading any of the four gospels in full:
http://www.biblegate...w+1&version=NIV
http://www.biblegate...201&version=NIV
http://www.biblegate...201&version=NIV
http://www.biblegate...201&version=NIV

Like I said before, if you do that and you still think God is hell bent on punishing people then you must be reading a different bible or just turning pages without reading. Even as Jesus was being tortured and killed he was granting people salvation and asking for their forgiveness.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you I am not so easily distracted. I will not indulge your desire to lead the conversation away from the points you have still refused to respond to. Saying that you simply don't "view it that way" is a cop-out. Please respond legitimately to the points I have written. At the very minimum, this would include an argument as to why hell is not punishment.

And you do realize that listing 125 quotes about a reward for being a Christian who loves God only furthers my position, don't you?

Unfortunately for you I am not so easily distracted. I will not indulge your desire to lead the conversation away from the points you have still refused to respond to. Saying that you simply don't "view it that way" is a cop-out. Please respond legitimately to the points I have written. At the very minimum, this would include an argument as to why hell is not punishment.

It isn't a cop out because, as I have established well before you came into this thread, it is exactly what I've believed for as long as I can remember. It just so happens that my faith happens to have a huge book that lays it out quite clearly in plain text; and no it is not the Bible. If only that document were so well laid out with a table of contents by subject matter and was freely available on the internet so someone arguing about such claims that you were making could easily google something like, "Catechism hell judgement," and see that this "cop-out" is what the catholic church has been teaching since Vatican 2; realistically well before then. If that takes too long for you there's this other handy short version that every catholic says every Sunday; that's pretty popular too.

So you'll excuse me for being cross with you for answering your questions with answers that will never be good enough for you should I write a book or a sentence. Regardless of what is typed you will come back with, "why do you have to hide behind such verbiage?" or "Your answers are too vague," lest you actually have to read and comprehend a simple subject predicate sentence to come back with something relevant rather than restating the exact same thing you've been saying for 3 pages and expecting a different answer than the first 20 times; that is insane.

But fine, call me lazy for not writing you a book or finding sources; though I just found you sources and those apparently aren't good enough,... as if anything would be, while you read 5 verses out of a 31,000 verse book that defines the faith you argue against and somehow think that those 5 are more relevant than the other 30,995 or even the 8,000 that make up the core of the faith.

Also:

[color=#1C2837][size=2]And you do realize that listing 125 quotes about a reward for being a Christian who loves God only furthers my position, don't you?[/quote]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]This is a false dilemma. As was most of your argument for the past few pages.

[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"][color="#1C2837"]This is a false dilemma. As was most of your argument for the past few pages. [/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]By dilemma do you mean dichotomy? I didn't posit a dichotomy. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There's no dichotomy at all in the quote you replied to. Could you clarify?
[color="#1C2837"]

If that takes too long for you there's this other handy short version that every catholic says every Sunday; that's pretty popular too.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]You must forgive me for not being intimately familiar with the literature of every Christian church on earth. But that is usually not even enough to determine the beliefs of a believer. I myself attended a Protestant church for over half of my life. There are as many variants of the religion as there are believers, even among a particular institution like the Catholic church. I do not know two Christians who think alike on all details. Must you blame me so much for wanting to know what you specifically believe? You shouldn't be so upset that I requested that you personally convey your belief on the subject. In fact, you should have been insulted if I had not.

[color="#1C2837"]But if your beliefs perfectly coincide with what is written in said documents, we are in agreement indeed.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]Furthermore, you do realize there are billions of Christians who are not Catholic and would disagree with you on specifically Catholic doctrine?

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]"Catechism hell judgement"[color="#1C2837"][/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]"[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire.""[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"[/font][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God"[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"[/font][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment"[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"[/font][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God"[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"[/font][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned."[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]So, we're in agreement.[/font]

[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]

[/font][color="#1C2837"]you read 5 verses out of a 31,000 verse book that defines the faith you argue against and somehow think that those 5 are more relevant than the other 30,995 or even the 8,000 that make up the core of the faith.[/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]I'm not treating them as if they are any more relevant than any other verses. I just wanted your interpretation of their mentioning of hell.

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]Regardless of what is typed you will come back with, "why do you have to hide behind such verbiage?" or "Your answers are too vague," lest you actually have to read and comprehend a simple subject predicate sentence to come back with something relevant rather than restating the exact same thing you've been saying for 3 pages and expecting a different answer than the first 20 times; that is insane.[/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]Oh dear.

DP

[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]By dilemma do you mean dichotomy? I didn't posit a dichotomy. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There's no dichotomy at all in the quote you replied to. Could you clarify?

[color="#1C2837"]They are the same thing. You posited an implied dichotomy; the existence of a reward means not giving said reward is a punishment. This is a false dilemma.
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]You must forgive me for not being intimately familiar with the literature of every Christian church on earth.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]It has nothing to do with being intimately familiar with anything. It has to do with being passively familiar with the core creed that is the base of all Christian faiths. Sorry if I expect someone arguing about the difference between the judgement and punishment of God to at least do the footwork to look into the general beliefs of the faiths being argued against.
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]

Furthermore, you do realize there are billions of Christians who are not Catholic and would disagree with you on specifically Catholic doctrine?
[/quote]
You said that what I believed was a cop out. Now I back up what I believe and now you jump to the side and change the argument from, "what you believe is a cop out," to, "well what you believe isn't the same as what everyone believes." Seriously dude. You expect me to be able to argue against you, but you consistently change your argument to make it impossible.

And more than 50% of christian americans hold the belief that hell is exactly what I said (US news and world report).

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]But if your beliefs perfectly coincide with what is written in said documents, we are in agreement indeed.

[color="#1C2837"]Furthermore, you do realize there are billions of Christians who are not Catholic and would disagree with you on specifically Catholic doctrine?

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]"Catechism hell judgement"[color="#1C2837"][/quote]

[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]So, we're in agreement.[/quote][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"]
[/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"]I'll quote the whole thing since you are so keen to pick and choose:[/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"]

[/font][color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][/font][color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[sup]614[/sup] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[sup]615[/sup] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[sup]616[/sup]

[size=2][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm"]1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[sup]617[/sup] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

[size=2][/url]1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."[sup]618[/sup]

[size=2]

[size=1]Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."[sup]619[/sup]
<a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm" style="color: rgb(148, 128, 92); ">1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;[sup]620[/sup] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":[sup]621[/quote][/sup]

[/font]
It never says God punishes anyone and specifically says that it is by your own choice that you will end up there.
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]

[/font]
[color="#1C2837"]I'm not treating them as if they are any more relevant than any other verses. I just wanted your interpretation of their mentioning of hell.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]You are or you wouldn't have said, "[color=#1C2837][size=2]Unfortunately for you I am not so easily distracted. I will not indulge your desire to lead the conversation away from the points you have still refused to respond to," when I posted sources like you keep asking for. The fact that I posted extra stuff for you to read is no excuse to ignore all of them. Again, nothing will every be good enough for you.
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]Here's another thing for you not to read.
[color="#1C2837"]http://www.explorefaith.org/punish.html
[color="#1C2837"]

We do not see a God that punishes, but [color=#1C2837][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]rather a God that seeks to restore us to our full humanity. We see a God who is more interested in blessing than punishing, more inclined to raise up than strike down. Our human propensity to misuse power distorts our humanity, sometimes to the point where it is unrecognizable. The result of this separation from our full humanity—the humanity God created us to have—is that we suffer, and then we tend to call that suffering God's punishment rather than taking responsibility for it ourselves. It is not God who punishes us, it is we ourselves. As the cartoon character Pogo once put it, "We have met the enemy and they is us."[/quote][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
[/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Now I will deliver you the best metaphor for how God deals with hell. Had you merely read, comprehended, and retorted to the things I actually said rather than creating an argument that happens to be easy to contort into another argument making it impossible to argue against without the rules of formal debate I would gladly stay and discuss more with you; however your desire not to discuss but, rather, belittle a faith leave me no choice but to leave you here in the hell that is this thread.[/font]

This forum software is really very annoying sometimes. Apparently there's now a limit on the number of quote blocks I can use (uhh, why?). So I have to break this into multiple posts. Sorry for the confusion.

[quote name='nilkn' timestamp='1303707874' post='4802547'][color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]By dilemma do you mean dichotomy? I didn't posit a dichotomy. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There's no dichotomy at all in the quote you replied to. Could you clarify?

[color="#1C2837"]They are the same thing. You posited an implied dichotomy; the existence of a reward means not giving said reward is a punishment. This is a false dilemma.
[color="#1C2837"][/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]No. Hell is the punishment.

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]You must forgive me for not being intimately familiar with the literature of every Christian church on earth.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]It has nothing to do with being intimately familiar with anything. It has to do with being passively familiar with the core creed that is the base of all Christian faiths. Sorry if I expect someone arguing about the difference between the judgement and punishment of God to at least do the footwork to look into the general beliefs of the faiths being argued against.
[color="#1C2837"][/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]You're not being very fair here at all. There are a LOT of strands of Christianity, even within Catholicism. The one thing I've learned from discussing the religion, both when I was a Christian and when I was not, is that you have to ask for the person's personal opinion, because assuming their beliefs coincide with some standard source is almost always inaccurate.

[color="#1C2837"]I really don't get why you're so offended over this. Would you really prefer that I had just *assumed* you believed some particular interpretation? I'm just trying to get your viewpoint. I don't see why you are so hostile about that!

[color="#1C2837"]

Furthermore, you do realize there are billions of Christians who are not Catholic and would disagree with you on specifically Catholic doctrine?
[/quote]
You said that what I believed was a cop out.
[/quote]

No, I said your lack of explanation was a cop out.

Now I back up what I believe and now you jump to the side and change the argument from, "what you believe is a cop out," to, "well what you believe isn't the same as what everyone believes." Seriously dude. You expect me to be able to argue against you, but you consistently change your argument to make it impossible.
[/quote]

You are misinterpreting me. I was only illustrating why I am asking you personally to explain what you believe. Please try to see this discussion from my viewpoint. There are a LOT of Christian viewpoints on every little detail.

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]But if your beliefs perfectly coincide with what is written in said documents, we are in agreement indeed.

[color="#1C2837"]Furthermore, you do realize there are billions of Christians who are not Catholic and would disagree with you on specifically Catholic doctrine?
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"]I'll quote the whole thing since you are so keen to pick and choose:[/font]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[sup]614[/sup] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[sup]615[/sup] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[sup]616[/sup]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[sup]617[/sup] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."[sup]618[/sup]



[size="1"]Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."[sup]619[/sup]
<a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm" style="color: rgb(148, 128, 92); ">1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;[sup]620[/sup] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":[sup]621[/sup][/font]
It never says God punishes anyone and specifically says that it is by your own choice that you will end up there.
[/quote]

Your quotes here explicitly say hell is punishment.

The claim that God predestines no one to go to hell I of course saw and read. This is probably what you have in mind. It supports me very clearly. There is no sense behind punishment if those to be punished had no free will! You don't create somebody, force him to sin, then punish him for what you forced him to do. That makes no sense. Instead, God punishes those who sin precisely BECAUSE he predestines no one to go to hell.

I suggest you look over my previous post on punishment, where I referenced Stanford's encyclopedia.