This forum software is seriously screwed up. I apologize for the terrible formatting--it's not my fault.

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[/font][color="#1C2837"]I'm not treating them as if they are any more relevant than any other verses. I just wanted your interpretation of their mentioning of hell.[/quote][color="#1C2837"]You are or you wouldn't have said, "[color="#1C2837"]Unfortunately for you I am not so easily distracted. I will not indulge your desire to lead the conversation away from the points you have still refused to respond to," when I posted sources like you keep asking for. The fact that I posted extra stuff for you to read is no excuse to ignore all of them. Again, nothing will every be good enough for you.[color="#1C2837"][/quote] [color="#1C2837"]We can only discuss one thing at a time. [color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]http://www.explorefa...org/punish.html[color="#1C2837"]

We do not see a God that punishes, but [color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]rather a God that seeks to restore us to our full humanity. We see a God who is more interested in blessing than punishing, more inclined to raise up than strike down. Our human propensity to misuse power distorts our humanity, sometimes to the point where it is unrecognizable. The result of this separation from our full humanity—the humanity God created us to have—is that we suffer, and then we tend to call that suffering God's punishment rather than taking responsibility for it ourselves. It is not God who punishes us, it is we ourselves. As the cartoon character Pogo once put it, "We have met the enemy and they is us."[/quote][/quote][/font][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]So let me get this straight. You expected me to deduce somehow that the website explorefaith.org contains an article that conveys your belief on hell? That's not very fair, is it?[/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]Nevertheless now I at last have a somewhat clear statement of your viewpoint. What is still lacking is the argument providing justification or reasoning. I know you're going to complain that "I'll never be satisfied," but the statement of opinion is about 10% of an argument or a position--the other 90% is the reasoning. [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [color="#1C2837"]But if you personally want to believe that hell is in no way punishment, then that's fine. I'll leave this be. I wanted to understand your *reasoning*, but I can see you have no interest in providing it. I won't bother you requesting it any more, since this request obviously offends you deeply. I had no intention of offending you. Suffice it to say I did not predict that requesting your reasoning would offend you. [/font][/font]
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[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]You have my sincere apologies for this offense. [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [color="#1C2837"]Let's go back to the beginning of this entire exchange. You claimed we had read different Bibles and your justification for this seemed to be that I think hell is used as punishment. You don't think that, obviously, and I won't try to convince you, since this offends you. I will, however, point out that many theologians agree with me. [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]Indeed, let us examine the Catholic Encyclopedia. [color="#1C2837"]In particular, let's look at its entry on hell: http://www.newadvent...then/07207a.htm [color="#1C2837"]It defines hell as "a place of punishment after death" and "a place of punishment for the damned." It states that "all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death." This sets the stage for my position, immediately identifying hell with punishment. [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]Now to demonstrate to you that indeed I read the whole entry, see this quote: [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [color="#1C2837"]"[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]From what has been said it follows that the hatred which the lost soul bears to God is voluntary in its cause only; and the cause is the deliberate sin which it committed on earth and by which it merited reprobation."[/font][/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font][/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"]Now this is not contrary to my position at all. It is perfectly consistent with it and is in fact to be expected. The concept of punishment is, after all, vacuous if the one punished could not have acted in such a way as to avoid the punishment![/font][/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][/font][/font][color="#1C2837"]The article asserts that "Hell is, especially in the eyes of God, one an indivisible in its entirety; it is but one sentence and one penalty." [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]One sentence specifically references God's threats of hell: "[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]Any obligation to act in this manner would be unworthy of God, because it would make Him dependent on the caprice of human malice, would rob His threats in great part of their efficacy[color="#1C2837"]." It is stated moreover that "[/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]it is the belief of all people that eternal retribution is dealt out immediately after death." Pay attention to the phrasing here: it speaks of "eternal retribution" which is "dealt out." [/font][/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]On this page (http://www.newadvent...thers/15012.htm) it is asserted that "[/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]Now the children of wrath God punishes in anger."[/font] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]Let us look at John 3:36: "he that believes not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abides on him." Here the "wrath of God" is explicitly referenced, suggesting direct action from God. [/font][/font]

[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][/font][/font]Let's also examine the Encyclopedia's article on Particular Judgment: http://www.newadvent...then/08550a.htm

It states "[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"] immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God". Here it is established, as I explained in a previous post, that indeed God decides our destiny himself, personally. It's quite clear that "[/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment". It uses the passive voice here, but it's clear that the agent of the action is the one who makes the decision of where the soul is to go to: God.[/font]
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[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]The article on Sin (http://www.newadvent...then/14004b.htm) actually goes so far as to define sin "as something detested and punished by God". It says "we are clearly taught in Scripture that God will punish all evil coming from the free will of man". As if it wasn't clear enough already, it states yet again that "A prohibition is unintelligible without the notion of some one prohibiting. The one prohibiting in this case and binding the conscience of man can be only God".
[/font][color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"]I can go on and on. The stance of the theologians who authored this article is very clear: they agree with me.[/font][/font]
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[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Now I will deliver you the best metaphor for how God deals with hell. Had you merely read, comprehended, and retorted to the things I actually said rather than creating an argument that happens to be easy to contort into another argument making it impossible to argue against without the rules of formal debate I would gladly stay and discuss more with you; however your desire not to discuss but, rather, belittle a faith leave me no choice but to leave you here in the hell that is this thread.[/font][/quote][/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"]You have my apologies if you were offended by my requests for justification behind your faith. I will remind you, however, that *you* initiated this debate with me; you should't have done so if you knew you couldn't handle a discussion about your faith.[/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"]The conclusion of our exchange is clear: You hold a nontraditional view on hell, even from within the Catholic church, despite your claims that the official Church documents perfectly represent your beliefs, and your claim that I couldn't have read the Bible was false, as the Catholic Encyclopedia perfectly agrees with me that hell is used directly by God as punishment, where the damned "are severely punished by God."[/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"] [/font][/font]
[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"]You and I have different interpretations of scripture. That does NOT mean that I read the Bible "blindfolded," just as it does not meant that *you* read it blindfolded. Indeed I am supported by a number of very well-known Catholic theologians, as illustrated above.[/font][/font]

Hey isn't it funny how things change? Today, the people who believe in this sky God and ignore the truth probably would have been the same ones to worship pagan stone/wood statues in Jesus time. Sacrificing their children to wood and stone statues, putting money on the altar of baal, having orgies on the altar, etc.

They wouldn't have wanted any part of Christianity in much the same way they ignore the new truth that looks them in the eye today.

Lots of stuff...

One thing that I'll say on the use of any non-foundational documentation to back up theology is that it's not very reliable. Theological trends come in and out of fashion, and often are unrelated to any real sort of research-- just the attitudes of the theologians. My favorite example is unbaptised children. For centuries, the Catholic view was that if you weren't baptised, you were going to Hell. A few years ago, the Church issued a statement saying something to the effect of "Infants who die before they are baptised get to go to heaven."

It's not like they had a room full of scholars pouring over documents, and one of them said "Oh, wait! Now that I look at this passage even closer, it looks like if infants die before baptism, they're in the clear!". The exact motivation for the change might not be clear, but I'd bet that it has a lot more to do with the old view being unpalatable than anything else.

New Advent doesn't look like a very official site, so I wouldn't assume that their interpretations are canocial (and I know that you're discussing individual views in particular, I'm trying to address a point generally). But the further an interpretation gets from something "solid" (relatively speaking), like a founding text, the less weight that interpretation has regardless of its agreement or lack thereof with other views supposedly of the same group.

It's one thing to dispute a piece of text, but quite another to try and pin down an exactly accurate and consistent heirarchy of views of a religion. Anything that is not the official position of a religious organisation probably can't be considered the view of the religion, but rather the view of a person or sub-group of the religion. But at the same time, the official positions of religious groups generally aren't much more than that either.

I pretty much agree with all that you say. Although The Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent is only one of several websites now hosting it--it was originally a physical encyclopedia in several volumes) was a very serious effort by serious Catholics, the main issue I can see with it is that it predates the second Vatican council. way2lazy2care said that his view was taught "well before" that, though, so I felt safe in referencing it.

That said, all I really needed was evidence that my view was shared by serious theologians. Citing individual Biblical verses would never have worked as I would have been accused of taking them out of context. Surely the quotations from the Encyclopedia are enough to verify that I am not alone in my understanding of hell as punishment and to do away with this claim that I have only ever read the Bible blindfolded.


One of the greatest difficulties in discussing a religion is that religions often are not defined solely by their texts. Ideally they would be purely a function of what is written, but they almost never are. This is why Christianity has splintered into hundreds of different sects. People like to say that the Bible is clear on something, but the chances are *very* high you can find a serious Christian who disagrees with you. Even the trinity is not accepted by all groups: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism