So i just spent some time reading through all posts in this thread. And i can see that it's gone from a healty discussion to needing to prove one and other wrong.

In response to the topic, i can say that trying to prove that God does not exists is unnecessary. Simply because there is no evidence of his existance in the first place. In our world there are many things we humans claim to be real. Gravity, for example, can not be seen (The effects of gravity can), nor heard, nor smelled, nor touched. So how can we claim that it's there? How can we belive the words of one single human? Because it's provable. For Newton's theory to be accepted, he had to prove it. In the same sense, belivers will have to prove the existance of God before it can be claimed as fact. Untill then, God and religion is only fiction.

Hence people say they are belivers, not knowers. I fully respect the belifes of another, and i do not want to offend you with my statement. If you BELIVE that God is real, please do. Please spend your life living it and please try to spread it! I do not mind that you take your belive onto others, when you accept that they may not belive. The problem lies when you state that it's real. For something to be real, it needs to be proven.

With that said i would like to join in on the discussion of religion. I belive (Note belive) that religion is many things. Religion is a form of control, that taps in to humans fear of the unkown. Religion is also a way to inspire to good in people. Last but not least, i belive that religion is just a made up answer to a question that has no answer. What's the reason behind our existance?

Just wondering... If I say that this universe is the *only* one existing, I have ALL the evidence on my side. Noone has any evidence of other "parallel universes". None.

First of all, I must admit that my knowledge in this area is definitely lacking. So everything I say here could potentially be stupid.
But, in quantum computing for example, the concept of superposition seems to come pretty close to what a parallel universe would be.
What if there are a lot of universes and we are living in just one version of it.

'Chris said:

1.) A man died on a cross which somehow saves the entire human race (only a TINY fraction of 1% of life that has been on the planet) from living in eternal damnation.
2.) Somehow we are still all born into sin and guilt and should spend our lives repenting and asking for forgiveness.
3.) If you don't do this, you will spend an eternity in a burning bad place - if you do this you will spend eternity in absolute happiness.

My question isn't which God is at the top… it's.. what could possibly make someone read a relic written thousands of years ago that says these things, and nod their head.. "yea… yea.. this makes sense, I'm going with this one."

It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

If you think turning athiest is scary (don't know why you would) then I suggest you spend more time believing and less time thinking

theres another thing… eternal damnation. If we live for 70 years, commit a few sins here and there (punch someone etc.) then 70 / infinity = 0?
so really our sins meant 0 for the amount of punishment we were given? and yet other animals just simply pass away to non-existance?

Strictly speaking, 70 / infinity is undefined.

The only people who believe in god are those who have been taught it from a very young age and who do not have the information to realize the truth.

You have to love it when arrogance and self-confidence are mixed with a total absence of facts like this. I particularly like the way the internet is elevated as a source of infinite knowledge, when using the internet to post such moronic blanket statements.

Thought exercise - you live in the country and one night an alien spaceship lands in your yard, and an alien emerges and engages in telepathy with you. The ship departs, leaving evidence of its landing - dents in the ground, scorch marks, etc. Maybe your family even see it too. But it wasn't tracked conveniently by satellites.

Explain how you prove it happened.

In response to the topic, i can say that trying to prove that God does not exists is unnecessary. Simply because there is no evidence of his existence in the first place. In our world there are many things we humans claim to be real. Gravity, for example, can not be seen (The effects of gravity can), nor heard, nor smelled, nor touched. So how can we claim that it's there? How can we belive the words of one single human? Because it's provable. For Newton's theory to be accepted, he had to prove it. In the same sense, belivers will have to prove the existance of God before it can be claimed as fact. Untill then, God and religion is only fiction.

Hi! I like the approach you are proposing here for the discussion.

Many people would present the mere existence of the universe as proof that god exists based on the premise that there must be a creator for the universe to exist.
The most logical argument to support the possibility of such a premise is that if humans can manipulate the universe to give birth creations of their own, why can't be there a "higher" being that can also do that on a higher spectrum than us?

Lets say that "creating" is the ability of a being to arrange data to form constructions that didn't exist before. Based on the observation that humans (or termites for that matter) posses such an ability as proof we can say that the fact that a being can create things is provable. It is also a requirement for every "creation" to have a creator.

What would be needed to be proven then is whether or not all things in the universe are in fact a creation from a being of some sort.

I've been thinking about this over the past few months and I believe its turning me into a bit of an atheist (which is kind of scary) but anyway, it all stems from
this phase:

"Cogito ergo sum"

which means....

"I think, therefore I am"

I keep wondering if there is a god and if he/she acknowledges that they exist then how do they know that they are in turn not being monitored by some higher power
(i.e. god's god). No matter what dimension or place god is existing within there will still be that acknowledgement of existence and therefore the uncertainty: are they really the apex entity?

This goes on forever (god's god's god etc.) until you realize that the current portrayal of god just does make any sense. Maybe because I'm human I just cant conceptualize an awareness of
one's own existence at that level (i.e. god), but, really, even if god is omnipotent, what if one day he finds out that everything he has ever known is false and that there is this higher power.

1. If you accept the standard idea of God you accept omnipotence and the idea of the Creator. Being a truly omnipotent Creator means God authors everything even the rules of logic itself. God can know for sure he/He is God even though there is no way anybody else can prove it. Logic is indeed the system which everybody else plays by and how God chooses to interact with the Existence but he/He is by no means limited by it. In the end everything even the system which arises due to the interaction between different properties we call logic is subject to his/His will/Will.

2. Even disregarding the above if you think about it in practical terms its pretty much an academic argument.

God by definition is Top Dog.
By definition everything he/He knows is correct

So it follows that an entity that fits the definition of God would correctly know he/He is The God. It doesn't matter that on paper it can't be proven that there isn't a Higher Power because by definition there isn't. God isn't going to lose any sleep or be overruled by a SuperGod which by definition doesn't exist.

Is religion really just the answer to man's fear of death?,

There is no one answer...for some people probably but not for others.

I mean we've been dead before and we kind of know how that went... just nothing.

You sure?

Many people would present the mere existence of the universe as proof that god exists based on the premise that there must be a creator for the universe to exist.
The most logical argument to support the possibility of such a premise is that if humans can manipulate the universe to give birth creations of their own, why can't be there a "higher" being that can also do that on a higher spectrum than us?

Let's assume every creation indeed needs a creator and therefore a "god" exists. Lots of people then proceed to arbitrarily choose the god of their religion, e.g. there is a universe, ergo there is a god, ergo it must be the christian god. This last step is of course completely wrong, but it is so often used as a means to "confirm" the existence of a specific god.


Using your argument also leads to the typical creater-of-god and the creator-of-the-creator-of god argument. You can't just say that god is not a creation and therefore does not need a creator, because if you allow that possibility, you might say the same of the universe, that it just exists. If we can't pretend to understand god, why should we be so arrogant to pretend we can understand the universe?

The question of whether there is a god or not, is completely useless. You can't prove or disprove it, as many have pointed out. The only questions that potentially matter are "why do people choose to believe in a god?" and "based on what do they choose a specific god?"

The question of whether there is a god or not, is completely useless. You can't prove or disprove it, as many have pointed out.

Well, that was actually my first statement in this thread. So I can say I agree with you on that one.


Yet we all go to sleep at night assuming that there will be another day tomorrow. I personally don't see why that assumption shouldn't also apply for death.

'SteveDeFacto' said:

The only people who believe in god are those who have been taught it from a very young age and who do not have the information to realize the truth.

You have to love it when arrogance and self-confidence are mixed with a total absence of facts like this. I particularly like the way the internet is elevated as a source of infinite knowledge, when using the internet to post such moronic blanket statements.

Hey hey hey, don't take that tone man with people with such awesome powers! He knows the truth!