Quote: Original post by FlashInThePan
(Link to Glenn Greenwald's site)

That is one awesome website, thank you. First time I've heard of this guy, but he is truly raising a few very valid points and making some really interesting reflections, not only in that one article.

Quote: Original post by samoth

Quote: Original post by FlashInThePan
(Link to Glenn Greenwald's site)

That is one awesome website, thank you. First time I've heard of this guy, but he is truly raising a few very valid points and making some really interesting reflections, not only in that one article.

Greenwald is one of my favorite bloggers. He's always worth reading.

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Find someone guilty of thoughtcrime, then set him up as a dangerous nukuler terrist and arrest him - sounds great, except that someone who was only guilty of being pissed off had to take the fall for it. Wanting to commit a crime is not a crime, not even in The Greatest Beacon of Censorship and Blind "Patriotism" in the World.

But in this case he apparently was willing to have gone well beyond thought crime. He didn't just think of doing it, he tried acting on it. When he got the assistance he needed he proceeded with a passion and didn't back down from it.


As for it creating 'lone gun men', well, they are always a risk. The lone gun man is something that we have no way to really defend against short of suspending all civil liberties and living under a constant surveillance big brother. They will always be a risk regardless of sting actions like this one.

Humans don't naturally want to kill and destroy, it is actually something we're wired against. (That is why humans feel things like guilt.) It is very hard for someone to actually act alone on such things, they need validation from others that what they are doing is actually right, and they usually need support of others to actually build up the courage to act on such ideas.

Quote: Original post by Talroth
It is very hard for someone to actually act alone on such things, they need validation from others that what they are doing is actually right, and they usually need support of others to actually build up the courage to act on such ideas.

You mean like the validation, support and encouragement the FBI provided?

Quote:
But in this case he apparently was willing to have gone well beyond thought crime. He didn't just think of doing it, he tried acting on it.

After the FBI hopped on the ride. Would he have done it without their involvement? We'll never know now. And that's why this sort of operation doesn't belong in any society claiming to have a fair justice system.

Quote: Original post by Talroth
The Oklahoma City bombing was done for just a few thousand, but could have been done far far cheaper for the same effect. Given that the target in this case was a crowd of unprotected people in the open, then a little bit of forethought and design effort could have seen a horrible mass murder done for less than $1000 in materials.

From what I understand, McVeigh went through demolition training in the Army. I find the claim that the bombing was done for a few thousand dollars dubious. At any rate, poking around for information about that led me to this: Almost 60 Terrorist Plots Uncovered in the U.S.

Quote:
...
In the 10 years since the April 19, 1995, bombing in Oklahoma City, in fact, the radical right has produced some 60 terrorist plots. These have included plans to bomb or burn government buildings, banks, refineries, utilities, clinics, synagogues, mosques, memorials and bridges; to assassinate police officers, judges, politicians, civil rights figures and others; to rob banks, armored cars and other criminals; and to amass illegal machine guns, missiles, explosives, and biological and chemical weapons.
...

Follow the link for details.



Regarding the pattern of FBI behavior...

Officials: Man who spoke of jihad arrested in plot (Dec. 08, 2010)

Quote:
BALTIMORE -- A 21-year-old construction worker who had recently converted to Islam and told an FBI informant he thought about nothing but jihad was arrested Wednesday when he tried to detonate what he thought was a bomb at a military recruitment center, authorities said.

Antonio Martinez, also known as Muhammad Hussain, faces charges of attempted murder of federal officers and attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, according to court documents filed Wednesday.

The bomb he is accused of trying to detonate was fake and had been provided by an undercover FBI agent.

"There was no actual danger to the public as the explosives were inert and the suspect had been carefully monitored by law enforcement for months," the U.S. Attorney's Office for Maryland said in a statement.
...
According to court documents, he has been on the FBI's radar screen since October, when he told a confidential FBI source he wanted to attack and kill military personnel.

The case is similar to one in Portland, Ore., where authorities said they arrested a Somali-born teenager the day after Thanksgiving when he used a cell phone to try to detonate what he thought were explosives in a van. He intended to bomb a crowded downtown Christmas tree-lighting ceremony, but the people he had been communicating with about the plot were in fact FBI agents.

After that case became public, Martinez called the FBI source he had been working with on the Maryland bomb plot, according to court documents, which said he seemed worried about another person that source had introduced him to. The person was an undercover FBI agent.

"I'm not falling for no b.s.," court documents quote him as saying.

After meeting with the source, however, Martinez decided to continue with the plot, according to the court documents. On Wednesday he drove an SUV with the dummy bomb to the recruiting center and parked outside the building, authorities said. When he attempted to detonate the device, he was arrested.
...

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. At the very least it's the only effective thing.

There were multiple pretty ridiculous schemes where they had a guy go to a mosque and try to recruit people for jihad, but in the cases being discussed here, the person pretty much tried to go out and find help to murder people.

The fact that this has to do with muslims or terrorists is making it an emotionally charged issue and that is distracting.

What if I went to a black market gun dealer, bought a machine gun, told the seller "I plan to go spray bullets at the mall, fuck the world!", and that person happened to be an FBI agent?

Shame on them? Seriously?

If I go take their fake gun, point it at a kid and pull the trigger, am I only guilty of a "thought crime", was the only thing I did wrong be angry? Poor me?

What if that gun dealer wasn't an agent?

Or what if he was and could arrest me on the spot for only thinking about it, and didn't have to go the extra mile and see me pull the trigger?

If some individual cannot go figure out how to build a bomb, it's only because somebody is quietly paying attention to what you look at at the library, internet, whatever. (And they probably aren't, but I digress.) The information is all there. Again, unless only stupid people hate America enough, someone is getting something done, and it's not airport security or the military-style "war on terror" bullshit.

Quote: Find someone guilty of thoughtcrime, then set him up as a dangerous nukuler terrist and arrest him - sounds great, except that someone who was only guilty of being pissed off had to take the fall for it. Wanting to commit a crime is not a crime, not even in The Greatest Beacon of Censorship and Blind "Patriotism" in the World.

Isn't your country arresting Julian Assaunge for "sex by surprise"?

That's not illegal in the Grandest Horriblest Country Except For All Those Other Ones That Don't Matter Cause They Don't Fit Your Narrative, either.

Quote: the prevailing opinion seems to be "anything can be sacrificed to prevent terrism, as long as it isn't me."

Not everyone agrees that something is being sacrificed.

I don't want the government to control me, but I would like them to pay attention to anyone doing something seriously, seriously bad. Even if we have to have a "bloated" agency to sift through all the junk data produced by a society that doesn't censor itself.

Quote: Isn't your country arresting Julian Assaunge for "sex by surprise"?

If you have to compare your justice system to Sweden's to make it look good, then it's pretty bad indeed. ;)

Quote: Not everyone agrees that something is being sacrificed.

Apparently.

Sorry if this is off-topic but... Is Sweden's bad?

It's a Socialism nightmare.